Supreme Court Justice Breyer: Founders Were For Restricting Guns… Why Breyer is Wrong
by Warner Todd HustonOn Fox News Sunday, Supreme Court Justice Stephen Breyer spoke of his dissenting decisions in the several Second Amendment cases that he heard as a Justice. He told host Chris Wallace that he thought that James Madison only included the Second Amendment in the Bill of Rights as a sop to the states and Breyer insisted that historians agreed.
In essence, Breyer was saying that Madison was not interested in an individual’s right to gun ownership and self-protection and for that reason his dissenting opinions against that individual right accorded well with what the founder’s thought on the issue.
But Breyer’s assumption that a citizen’s right to bear arms is not sacrosanct and his following contention that the founders would agree seems to ignore much of the history of the era not to mention the precedents in law and the historical record upon which the founders relied to define their political ideas — including Madison.
Of course, it is a bit ridiculous to take one lone founder’s words and assume that it represents the opinion of all of them. It is quite easy, after all, to find quotes from any particular founder that in no way reflected even a minority opinion of the day. For instance, Thomas Jefferson once advocated that all laws be dumped every few decades so that the next generation could start over with their own ideas unencumbered by past generations. Even Madison thought that idea was absurd. Hamilton found that many of his most dearly held financial ideas left his fellows cold. John Adams thought that we should call the president “your majesty,” an idea that earned him much derision. And Poor Richard himself, Benjamin Franklin, once proposed that each galaxy had it’s own “God” that ruled in his own sphere meaning that there were infinite gods for infinite galaxies. Not every idea the founders had were gems, to be sure.
Still, Madison spoke with most of his contemporaries, not outside them, when he considered the meaning of the Second Amendment.
It is certainly true that the founder’s chief interest in creating the Second Amendment was to serve two important roles. One was to create a citizen army, a militia that could be called upon to defend the nascent nation. The second was to prevent the necessity of a large standing army, a body that most of the founders feared. Based on a clear reading of history, the prevailing opinion of the day was that a standing, powerful army served the forces of tyranny far more often than it served those of liberty. Consequently they wanted to figure out a way to make sure that the U.S. Army was small and too weak to threaten the citizenry.
This fact is what Breyer pointed to in order to prove his contention that Madison was not concerned with an individual’s right to own firearms.
On the Fox News show, after Wallace brought up Breyer’s dissenting opinions the Justice developed his thesis.
“It is a matter of what those framers intended. And you saw that first phrase,” Breyer told Wallace. “‘A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.’ What does that mean, the militia? Historians told us, and the dissenters thought they were right, that what that meant was that James Madison, thinking, ‘I’ve got to get this document ratified,’ was worried about opponents who would think Congress would call up state militias and nationalize them. ‘That can’t happen,” said Madison.’”
Breyer went on saying, “And therefore, he wrote the Second Amendment to prove it. Now, if that was his motive historically, the dissenters were right. And I think more of the historians were with us.”
In other words, Breyer was saying that Madison added the Second Amendment to assure the states that the U.S. Army could not be called together to oppress the states. That the focus seemed to be on precluding the federal government from using the army against the states, Breyer feels this means that the individual’s rights was not something “the founders” meant to assure with the Second Amendment.
But Breyer’s assumption ignores several key factors that influenced the founder’s ideas.
One important source of law that the founder’s relied on was the English Common Law. In fact, the founders felt that they were more true to the Common Law than the British themselves were. Just before the American Revolution, a most complete treatise of the English Common Law was published in England. This book was Commentaries on the Laws of England written by Sir William Blackstone, a famed British jurist. These volumes quickly made their way to the colonies and were soon found in the library of nearly every founder of means. At least by 1771 the books were also being reprinted in the colonies.
It was a well-accepted point that the right of self-defense was an important part of the rights of a full citizen. Here is what Blackstone said of those rights in volume 2 of his treatise.
I. The defence of one’s self, or the mutual and reciprocal defence of such as stand in the relations of husband and wife, parent and child, master and servant. In these cases, if the party himself, or any of these his relations (1), be forcibly attacked in his person or property, it is lawful for him to repel force by force; and the breach of the peace, which happens, is chargeable upon him only who began the affray (d). For the law, in this case, respects the passions of the human mind ; and (when external violence is offered to a man himself, or those to whom he bears a near connexion) makes it lawful in him to do himself that immediate justice, to which he *is prompted by nature, and which no pnidential motives are strong enough to restrain. It considers that the future process of law is by no means an adequate remedy for injuries accompanied with force; since it is impossible to say, to what wanton lengths of rapine or cruelty outrages of this sort might be carried, unless it were permitted a man immediately to oppose one violence with another. Self-defence therefore, as it is justly called the primary law of nature, so it is not, neither can it be in fact, taken away by the law of society, hi the English law particularly, it is held an excuse for breaches of the peace, nay even for homicide itself: but care must be taken, that the resistance does not exceed the bounds of mere defence and prevention ; for then the defender would himself become an aggressor (2).
As Blackstone understood self-defense, it was a “primary law of nature,” a natural right. This being assumed, the founder’s didn’t likely feel the need to explain this in the Second Amendment. After all, if they were going to footnote every basic assumption of their day the footnotes would have been ten times longer than the Constitution itself!
It wasn’t left unsaid in all the writings of the founding era, though. Many quotes along these lines can be found. Both Sam Adams and Jefferson, for instance, said that the people had an individual right to bear arms. “No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms,” said Jefferson. For his part Sam Adams hoped that, “The said Constitution be never construed…to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.”
In his own famous treatise on the U.S. Constitution early Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story also address the Second Amendment. Story wrote, “The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them.”
Further more, many of the various state’s constitutions similarly assured that the right to keep and bear arms were an individual’s rights.
The fact is, the founders had a basic assumption that the right of the individual to keep and bear arms was fundamental not just to the Constitution, but to the natural rights of men. They didn’t feel a need to explain this basic assumption because their whole edifice was built upon it. When one talks of the sky, for example, most people immediately get the impression of a blue canopy with white clouds. One need not explain those colors every time one speaks of the sky. It is simply assumed. The idea that the individual has a right to bear arms was as commonly assumed by the founders as the idea that the sky is blue is to us.
This is not to say that all the founders felt that there should be no regulation of firearms, of course. But these facts do tend to make Justice Breyer’s concept risible, in any case.
Of course, the reason Breyer and his ilk want to ignore the entire history of the founding era and focus so closely on the mere words of the Constitution that all intent is invalid is because they want the Constitution to be that elastic, “living document” that has no fixed meaning at all. In that way they can make fungible our nation’s basic law and they can make of it anything they want to push their agenda.
Simply put, Breyer is completely wrong. The founders were not solely interested in using the Constitution to stop an out of control army from oppressing the people and were otherwise unconcerned with the individual’s right to bear arms. Yes they were interested in the danger the army might pose but it was fully assumed by all of them that the individual had that right to self-protection.
In fact, it is absurd to assume that there could be both a right of government to legislate guns away and still even have that ability of the citizens to rise up to put down an out of control government.
After all, if the courts could legislate away the guns themselves it would destroy the individual’s right to firearms and it would necessarily eliminate the Second Amendment even if all you thought the Amendment was for was for a check on tyranny. We can use Jefferson’s words again to enlighten us here.
In his Report on Navigation of the Mississippi in 1792, Jefferson wrote, “It is a principle that the right to a thing gives a right to the means without which it could not be used, that is to say, that the means follow their end.”
In other words, if the government can legislate away firearms, saying they “could not be used,” then this would essentially take away the natural right of self-protection, the “means” being the firearms, that nearly every founder agreed existed.
In summation, Breyer is wrong. Madison wasn’t dismissive of an individual’s right to bear arms. He and his fellows assumed the right existed as a basic tenet of our natural rights.
(Another great little piece on the Second Amendment was written by Stephen P. Halbrook. It can be found at Roanoke.com.)
Transcript of the segment of Fox News Sunday in question can be found at the Fox News Sunday website.







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177 Comments
We are rapidly approaching a point of no return.
Everyone knows it.
Nobody is quite sure what to do.
Stephen Breyer:
Incredible…and this moron is a so-called justice on our supreme court!
The language in the Constitution is written in very simple, short worded, but to the point in meaning. Yet these appointed arrogant lawyers, wearing long black ugly dresses, seem to know how to rewrite and con volute the greatest document by the founders. WHY?
Everything you wrote is absolutely true, Mr. Huston, but the fact is that Justice Breyer was simply working backward from his pre-ordained conclusion and using any support, no matter how tenuous, to prop up his faulty position.
Who knew that Madison didn't REALLY mean it? I've heard of historical revisionism but this is REALLY historical fraud. We're talking about the Constitution, not silly putty that can be shaped any way Breyer wants it.
Wait until you see the whites of their eyes….
The Founders did just the opposite. The Founders in fact Restricted the Federal Government from Restricting the Right of the People to keep and Bear Arms.
Justice Breyer is the Poster Child for just why Liberals should never be allowed to serve on the High Court.
This is the same clown who suggested that the court take into consideration international law. He should be removed from the bench for his utter disregard for American laws and general disdain and misrepresentation of the constitution.
I saw that video and posted up on my FB Fan Page. These people are out of their minds to think they know what the Founding Fathers were thinking. Anyone with half a brain can understand why they created the 2nd and it wasnt for hunting. The FF had just come out of an oppressive 'govt' and were thinking we cant let that happen again.
Pray folks, pray that our remaining conservative SCOTUS justices stay in good health and dont leave their positions while we are under the BHO regime. We cannot afford to lose another SCOTUS judge while this failure is in office.
Besides the illegal immigration argument the 2nd IMO is the other true trigger to set off this powder keg called America. We take everything they put on our backs but they touch the 2nd and I mean really go after it UK style all bets are off and there is nothing nothing to stop the hell that will be born from it. BHO knows this and is why the are doing their damnest to regulate the hell out of it.
In Califailia in just a short time they are going to be in acting a law on ammo sales. This law will be a back door method to gun registration when you buy ammo they will require ID, paperwork be filled out and a fingerprint! Not to mention the ABSURD open carry law (you can open carry but it cant be loaded!) and magazine restrictions(10rnds max for pistols and semi auto rifles cannot have mag releases). Nice huh! I can only imagine what other laws are being put in place there and across the nation.
I hope folks see the nudging that is taking effect, its slow and below the radar where before you know it its not the America so many of us grew up from!
56 men, our Founding Fathers, had the guts to stand up and do what’s right, what about you? http://www.savingtherepublic.com
Witness the true ideology of a liberal member of SCOTUS. Expect his vote to be one to repeal the 2nd Amendment. They fear citizens' right to bear arms as it is a threat, and many believe it to be a right not only as self-protection but protection of a tyrannical government. That last point exists today……..and they are scared shitless that armed Americans will terminate a tyrannical government. In my opinion….they are not scared enough……
We must continue to fight to protect our 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear arms……always!!!
Maybe he has a point. (No, not Breyer.)
OMG! I can't believe I am watching our country go down in FLAMES (I'm only 38)!!!!
It is RIGHT to defend yourself, no matter what you use!
The Founders WERE NOT FOR RESTRICTING GUNS! This is just more propaganda to FOOL the young kids growing up today! I am a Gun owner with a carry permit and I VOTE, I would suggest everyone buy a gun, get a carry permit, learn how to use it, teach your kids gun safety! Join the NRA or a local gun group! Better get them before they are all banned!
One of the main reasons for the 2nd Amend is that we can PROTECT OURSELVES from a TYRANNY GOVERNMENT!
Personally, I do not care whether it is Justice Breyer, attempting to spew his brand of injustice, or the entire Supreme Court, as a body, or for that matter both deliberative bodies making up the CONgress, the House and the Senate, or for that matter, the President of the United States, they have all come to the point that they have rendered themselves irrelevant.
I was born a free man, a sovereign citizen. My rights are unalienable, and come from my Creator.
Thomas Jefferson wrote a pamphlet entitled "A Summary View of the Rights of British America" which took dead aim at the notion that the Colonies existed to benefit the Mother Country. Jefferson ended with a dire warning to King George the Third: "Kings are the servants, not the proprietors of the people. Open your breast Sire, to liberal and expanded thought. Let not the name of George the Third be a blot in the pages of history."
I am of the opinion, that all those in power today, ought take heed.
I'm going to steal this from someone. It is not mine. " They can have my guns. One bullet at a time. "
Time for Pitch=Forks and torches !!!
If they didn't want it in the Constitution, they shouldn't have put it there. But it is there, and the SC should not be judging cases on what they think anyone (themselves, the founders, Michael Moore, or Bozo the Clown) believes should be there — instead all decisions should be based on what is actually THERE. So There.
I was born with a carry permit-it's called the 2nd Amendment!
I stopped reading a paragraph or two in.
"…he thought that James Madison only included the Second Amendment in the Bill of Rights as a sop to the states…"
Yeah, they didn't really mean it. Just some extra words as window dressing. Sure. Sorry Justice Breyer –
"…the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
What part of that don't you understand, sir?
I can, and have read the Constitution. I read it all the way through last week. It is a simple document that has been bastardized, perverted and ignored by lawyers, judges, bureaucrats and damn near every politician ever elected to a federal office. Three of the four aforementioned classes of PIG has sworn an oath to that very same Constitution, and violated it with impunity. Who do we have to blame? Ourselves. WE are the ones who are either willfully ignorant or choose to be silent when these steamy piles of feces violate our rights as American citizens!!!
And no, you cannot pick and choose those violations which you find more or less acceptable, nor more or less objectionable. Federal power was meant to be limited, while states had wider latitude in setting social policies more in tune with the local population. The brilliance in that was that if you don't like it – MOVE!
Restore the Federal government to it's more limited role and we can massively slash taxes and experience a tremendous economic BOOM! We would, of course, have to weed out the criminals on the bench and put a leash on those at the Bar association, but I wager the vast majority of us would experience absolutely NO negative impact in our daily lives…
I'm Canadian, so I am not sure if I understand this, but let me give it a shot….
The Bill of Rights was written to protect individual rights.
Except the 2nd Amendment.
HUH?!?!
To paraphrase Jefferson (I believe); 'the beauty of the 2nd amendment is that you don't need it until they try to take it away."
What an incredibly stupid argument. Who in those days would not have owned a gun? or six.
It would be like saying we today are for restricting car sales.
Guns were tools just like a saw or hammer the idea the Founders would want to restrict them is so
empty headed.
Arms does not only mean guns. I believe I have a right to bear knives, cross bows, swords…
Show me where I'm wrong.
Buy guns.
I like to think that the point of no return would quickly die with a whimper on the part of the govt., if that is who you think the threat is. Dense urban centers may be easy to control, outside those places? Not so easy. And I cannot imagine the govt being able to rally enough troops to put the people down. To be honest, I think the moment would be more like the collapse of the Soviet Union. And since it is the 21st century, the revolution will certainly be televised.
Bazookas
Grenade launchers
Neutron bombs
Don't think that these Socialist SOB.s are not going to try to disarm us, they will. They have to if they are to win. We must not let that happen, however we must stay strong, vigilant and peaceful as long as we can
Hear! Hear!
AT ALL COSTS hide your chopsticks. They won't let you eat with a fork.
I think people are missing the point. The Constitution was ratified by the American people. It is their intentions that matter, not the drafters of the document.
The ESSAY refuting Breyer is here:
http://theantiliberalzone.blogspot.com/2010/12/as...
http://theantiliberalzone.blogspot.com/
The Anti Liberal Zone
As you know Conservatives understand that the "People" listed in the Second Amendment are the very same People who have a Right to peaceably assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances in the First Amendment.
The same People who are to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures in the Forth Amendemnt.
The same People who shall not be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury. The same People who shall not be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb, or compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, or be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law in the Fith Amendment.
For Justice Breyer and his supporters to be correct in their view the Military would be the only "People" with Rights in the Bill of Rights.
The founders knew that the only way we could stay free was through an armed citizenry.
Unlike slavery, which is as we all know, is morally wrong (than, now and for all time),
however, the right to bear arms is not and has never been, under any light,……..
a issue of moral concern nor a scientific at that.
So this clown is somehow correct and every justice that has come before him,…..
has been wrong…………….WOW.
"No man should ever be denied the right to defend himself against intractable tyranny with anything less than the weapon of choice for the modern foot soldier of his time."
Go read a book.
Patrick Henry, 1775:
"They tell us that we are weak—unable to cope with so formidable an adversary. But when shall we be stronger? Will it be when we are totally disarmed, and when a British guard shall be stationed in every house? Three million people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us."
Samuel Adams:
"Among the natural rights of the colonists are these: first, a right to life, secondly to liberty, thirdly to property; together with the right to defend them in the best manner they can."
Thomas Jefferson, in an early draft of the Virginia constitution:
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms in his own lands."
Noah Webster, 1787:
"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword, because the whole of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops."
James Madison, "The influence of the State and Federal Governments Compared, "46 Federalist New York Packet, January 29,1788:
"Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. And it is not certain that with this aid alone they would not be able to shake off their yokes. But were the people to possess the additional advantages of local governments chosen by themselves, that could collect the national will and direct the national force, and of officers appointed out of the militia, by these governments and attached both to them and to the militia, it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily overturned in spite of the legions which surround it."
I think just this little bit of wisdom from our founders will refute what the Supreme Court Justice is saying. Our Founders were far smarter than the con-artist trying to steal our liberties. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRR>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I hate those that try to revise history to fit their own twisted sense of eliteism.
Hyperbole ….
Pretty simple really. Arm up.
Unusually clear for a Canadian. Thank you for understanding.
Breyer's basic reasoning was: That not everyone agreed 100% with the Second Amendment. Well, I guess you could overturn the entire Constitution if that "reasoning" was allowed to prevail.
So by Breyer's logic, the entire Bill of Rights should be thrown out because all ten of those Amendments came about only because the Anti-Federalists weren't going to support The New Constitution otherwise. And I get this bad feeling that Breyer would be just fine with trashing them…
Help us Obi-wan.
+Hanzo+
You are right. Knives, swords, bows, etc were more common than firearms back then.
Even if it was true that the Second amendment was a "sop" to the states, what of it? The question is was this right necessary to get the citizens and States to accept and ratify a more powerful federal government? Of course.
Indeed, the Framers first presented their plan to the States with no Bill of Rights at all, only to see the citizenry balk at the grant of power given, especially to the Senate. So, in order to reassure the citizenry that the Framers were not reestablishing a House of Lords in the New World, a Bill of Rights was added … as a sop to the States, or something. So does this mean the Bill of Rights is now subject to being abrogated?
yes nicely done, cannuck!
Throughout history no standing military force has defeated an armed citizenry. Armys aren't designed to do that, they're designed to fight other standing Armys.
.
It is common knowledge in the U.S military that any standing army must have a 10 to 1 advantage to have a chance to defeat an armed populace, plus there are e-mail petitions circulating through the enlisted ranks of the active duty U.S. military pledging to NOT answer the call to arms against the American civilian population.
.
All of which would be very, very worrisome to any POTUS thinking about giving an order to the DOD to suppress an actual rebellion of some sort or another.
.
That is why the Left is so intent on disarming the American Public. Some scary shit, huh?
You said it, JP, because they're lawyers. Mr.Washington said if we vote lawyers into politics it would be the ruination of our nation, smart man. +Hanzo+
The arrogance of this man is striking. I love how he can say that he knows what someone 200 plus years ago was thinking.
I think that anyone who had lived through the Revolution would understand the value of private gun ownership. How simple a thought is that?
Justice Breyer has been wrong before…many, many times.
Sometimes old people just don't know when to fade away. Like Breyer and Ginsberg.
unfortunately, a lot of the soldiers, it seems are actually ok with firing on US citizens. this pamphlet has been distributed since the mid 90s and, if i recall correctly, about 75 or so percent said that they'd have hesitation but would do it. like i said, i don't remember the exact figure but i'm sure it's out there…either way, it's the majority.
only a good handful has decided to stand by their oath. bless them.
Well, I think that might be their goal.
the original intent of the drafters matters bc otherwise laws, by the interpretive whims of justices and societal convention, can change without every requiring the legislature by way of mere re-interpretation. if we don't like some of the original drafters' intents then we're certainly permitted to alter the constitution.
we have statists in the supreme court…what else is new?
Hey, Justice Brain-Dead–Where is the "maybe/perhaps/not in all cases/I think so/we could mean it this way" in the Second Amendment? Please point that out. Thanks.
Things in America would be a lot different if we brought all our troops home – the best of the best (young, talented, and patriotic) are being kept in Afghanistan and Iraq for a reason. All we have at home are those that are awake and veterans.
Let us assume, for argument's sake, that Breyer is correct. (One must completely ignore the federalist papers Madison wrote to come to this conclusion but let's do so for a moment.) Madison only included the 2nd amendment to compromise with the states in order to get the constitution passed. So what? What Madison may or may not have wanted is almost immaterial. He was one man in a nation of millions who was to be served by the federal government and it's constitution. He was ONE vote of millions. Now, federalist 42 (if I remember the correct number) CLEARLY states the individual right to bear arms is intended as a check against tyranical centralized governments. Even if we conclude Madison only wrote THAT to describe the opinion of the states he compromised with… again… So What? The states have every reason to be fearfull of a tyranical federal government, as does the individual. WHY the 2nd amendment exists doesn't really matter, all that matters is that it is there and it says no law shall be passed to infringe on our unalienable right to protect ourselves from other individuals, groups and tyrants. THIS is the foundation of freedom more than anything other than the right to own property… the right to protect it.
Every comment, editorial, letter, etc that I have read, and they are too numerous to mention, all written during the time of the founding of this country, are quite careful to make blatantly clear their belief that an armed citizenry is the only way to guarantee individual liberty and therefore the future of this country. They understood that liberty could stand only when the govt had a healthy fear for the people it served and not the other way around. It's all out there and very easy to find. All you have to do is read it and you will see the divine brilliance that created the greatest country in history.
Breyer, in addition to lying his @ss off, has violated his duty to uphold the Constitution and thus should be forced to resign immediately.
A couple of gems from the father of our country –
■ "Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth."
■ "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference – they deserve a place of honor with all that's good."
~ George Washington ~
And a couple from James Madison himself Mr. Breyer –
■ "Americans have the right and advantage of being armed – unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms.
■ "Do not separate text from historical background. If you do, you will have perverted and subverted the Constitution, which can only end in a distorted, bastardized form of illegitimate government."
~ James Madison ~
It is quite true that no one is always right, including our forefathers, and quotes can be used seperate from one another
and out of context and chronological order to paint a desired picture – but Breyer shows himself to be be an unscholarly revisionist and activist judge to promulgate the stances he takes.
hi mike3481,
i like what you're saying but how about the whiskey rebellion?
or, in a much broader sense, the North's conquest of the South.
And since Obozo took office, that's precisely what people have been doing. My mom worked at a gun store as a book keeper at a major gun store here in MI, and the sales spike was absolutely stunning to her. In one month they sold more guns than they had the previous year. Ammo has been almost impossible to keep in stock, so much so that they had to apply limits to how much one person could buy in a single visit.
"Shall Not Be Infringed" and "Right Of The People" being specifically and expressly stated shows how wrong Breyer is wrong all by themselves.
Just think, until this last March, the Second Amendment didn't apply to state and local governments. To this day it does not do so on its own merit. No, it only applies "through" the "Due Process" clause of the 14th Amendment. We have the NRA, in part, to thank for that bunch of garbage – just like the Gun Control Act of 1968.
Folks in this country, all over this great nation, would serve themselves well to take a good hard look at the McDonald versus Chicago decision and dissents alongside Heller versus D.C decision and dissents.
Folks chide me sometimes because I point out that "privileges" and "rights" are the same thing. Indeed, I gained a fair number of thumbs down on this site when it was so very new over that topic. It is time for folks to realize just how our rights, not just pertaining to guns, have been judicially subverted. Something about long train of abuses comes to mind…..
If "privileges or Immunities", as used in the 14th Amendment aren't a positive and negative way to describe "inalienable rights", if "rights" and "privileges" aren't synonymous, then the 14th can only have undone what the 13th did. That is to say, the 14th can only have equally enslaved us all to our master called government.
Justice Breyer, and other progressive pukes, would have us believe exactly that by convincing us that rights and privileges are different things. Beware folks, Liberty itself is at stake. It is now or never.
You err in just believing it.
You must KNOW it!
It was written to RECOGNIZE it – as a means of stopping the denial of it.
The very denial on display by the likes of Breyer.
Scalia spoke to the very point in Heller. He slammed Ginsburg's "interest balancing approach" in a way that simply cannot be undone.
Now, the point you make about it not being there is one the Chicago Tribune tried to opine about right after Heller came out. They actually did an editorial about REPEALING the Second Amendment. The smackdown they got was Hilarious to a Second Amendment advocate like myself.
They can go ahead and try to disarm me if they wish, then we'll see how many of 'em are willing to die for their precious Socialist Utopia.
You are missing a critical point. It really doesn't matter what the members of the Constitutional Convention wanted. This was forced on the Federal Government by the people of the United States. In other words they wouldn't vote to ratify it unless these freedoms were guaranteed. It was not the States that forced this on the Federal Government. The Preamble says " We the People…" Not "We the States". It was the people of the States that forced it on the Federal Government.
For Justice Breyer to say it the Second Amendment is not valid because Madison didn't want to sign it is like saying the Magna Carta is not valid because King John did not want to sign it.
An interesting and related article. http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/featured_documen...
We will know when it's time.
Bingo! That says it all, mrm, very well put.
Yup…
Backatchya
Neutron bombs would be great for DC because they would get rid of the pests but limit damage to landmarks. /sarc off
Oath Keepers existence dispels the notion you propagate there obl. That old hand line no longer holds the water it once did.
Today's soldiers won't even do that to the a population our enemy hides behind, and that shows they will never do such a thing to us here on our own soil.
Make no mistake, Military Service members of this time will do what is right the overwhelming majority of the time. Do not disparage them with the petty and false declaration like the one you just made. Please.
Here is why what Breyer had to say was asinine – and to furthering your point –
The right to defend our own life and those of our kin, our property and our Pursuit of Happiness is self-evident, inalienable, pre-existing the Constitution and come from the Creator, from our humanity itself – not from government machination. This is where Breyer and the rest of his ilk are so wrong.
Traitors they are, every last one of them who refuses to accept the tenets of the Declaration of Independence.
well said, fried, well said. I agree 100%
Many said that about Afghanistan in 1989. They said it about Iraq in 1991. And again in 1993 about Somalia. All three times, soldiers returned home prematurely and all three times history demonstrates the mistake that was made. Now, regarding Germany and Japan, the resolve to stay until the job was done brought about lasting peace and prosperity.
The reason soldiers remain deployed is because we really are engaged in a global war that we did not start. Refusing to fight it is not an option leading to peace, that path only leads to more 9-11s. Every U.S. military member could return home and put down their weapons and this war would not be over – because we didn't start this fire. We didn't lite it, we are just trying to fight it. Put it out we will if we stand our ground to defend freedom and all that is good and just in this world. ( Dang, what a country – a guy can mix Billy Joel with a twist of George Bush)
obl, yo mean like Selective Incorporation? Like Amending the Constitution from within the judiciary as was done with the fabrication that is "interstate commerce"? Like it is today and has been for 130 years or longer?
It exists with or without the approval or disapprovable of the majority. This was already decided and written down (as Blackwell reminds us to do) in the Declaration of Independence. that among these are……
Well done. If I may, I aim to add a kind of arm to your list that is right on the mark.
Words and their meanings. They are arms as well. Indeed, they are often times the most important ammunition available. I think many of us forget that sometimes – maybe partially because those usurpers among us would have us disarmed of all of our rights.
They were thrown out once already-
Read about Selective Incorporation and you will see that to be true.
Barron is a word you will come to despise in a new way……
It is not the Constitution folks like him aim to destroy, for it is the Declaration they attempt to obliterate. Seriously.
It would seem that some one, namely Breyer, is channeling (now discredited) historian Michael Bellesies, who fabricated evidence to give the impression that there was no "culture of gun ownership" in early America. Sad really, on both Bellesies and Breyer's account.
Yes! And it was fresh in their minds that how they had won their freedom. I think most don't appreciate what bold men they were compared to what we are today.
If Breyer insists that the Founding Fathers were a bunch of anti-gun hippies, he's an idiot. However, there's no need to even look at the intent when the plain language of the Constitution says right to bear arms.
Yes, and when his citations were checked, the research showed that guns were everywhere in early America.
Simply working the 'facts', as he sees them, to fit his hypotheses. Truly frightening when it comes from a man of his position.
learn how to field strip your weapons in the dark, stock up on ammo, and keep your powder dry…
My father, a WW II vet, taught me to be a crack shot as a small kid during the cold war, but also went to great lengths to teach me how to disassemble firearms and hide them in case OUR OWN GOVERNMENT showed up at the door with a shopping list. At the time, I thought he was nuts. Not any longer.
amazing how i can't say what is called 'disparaging' on here without getting thumbs down, though it is fact.
this is pretty well documented, ashrak, and it's an unfortunate truth. that said, you might be right that CURRENTLY those statistics don't at all apply, especially considering they're old. nonetheless, that was the report. i'd accept the hypothesis that the responses to the pamphlet itself were fabricated perhaps.
i love oathkeepers, but their mere existence doesn't dispel that notion. oathkeepers is only about 100,000 strong, and it's not all active duty. it's more of the older generation.
It's both. Seriously.
With all due respect to this pompous, regressive, know-it-all judge (who shouldn't only be promptly impeached and barred from serving on the bench ever again, but also forbidden from holding any form of public office for the remainder of his natural life), I trust the Founders' words over his, because of the simple fact that unlike us, they had to experience firsthand what it was like to live under the tyranny of King George III, his thug army of Redcoats and cutthroat bands of mercenaries. One need only look at the Declaration of Independence for the long list of abuses that the colonists had to endure under this despot. And if I'm not mistaken, weren't the Battles of Lexington and Concord fought over the British trying to confiscate weapons caches that the colonists had accumulated for the strict purpose of their own self-defense? So you could say that what started the whole American Revolution was this blatant attempt by the British to deprive them of their natural right to defend themselves, which is one of the first things that a real tyrant will do before consolidating power for himself and proceeding to oppress his own people. That's why we have the Second Amendment in the first place, so such a dark scenario can never be allowed to play out here on our own soil.
i believe you're right that a good chunk would abide by their oath, but we;ve got another thing coming if you all are banking on most of them doing so.
yep, he's a crackerjack alright.
Do you have the wording or phrasing of the actual pamphlet?
yeah, somewhere. i'll try and dig it up and get back to you. i read this years ago and i can't remember the source.
also, i would guess there's something about it at the oathkeepers website. i'll check over there tonight.
OK, just looked up the OathKeepers online. If what they are being asked to sign is an agreement with the ten oaths not to obey I can see where some would hesitate. Number 7, "We will NOT obey any order to force American citizens into any form of detention camps under any pretext" would negate an american citizen in a foreign land captured as an enemy combatant being placed in Guantanamo Bay detention center. John Walker Lindh was captured on an enemy battlefield, held by the military, before later transporting him at the orders of then Attorney General Ashcroft to the US to face federal trials. Now, I am not positive to the legalities, but could he have faced a tribunal in those circumstances?
Also, number 4 is 4. "We will NOT obey orders to impose martial law or a “state of emergency” on a state." Now, dismissing this as an outright, not under any circumstances statement would give me pause. In extreme weather circumstances, where the national guard's manpower is not enough, could supplementing with soldiers help? They have for wildfire fighting. Not for martial law, but for states of emergency. There is a lack of clarity in these.
Perhaps the info you have is more detailed.
nono. what i'm talking about is a pamphlet that was distributed, i think, under clinton. the questionnaire asked a bunch of things; eg. "if a law were passed banning firearm ownership, would you be willing to fire on citizens refusing to obey the law?"
a) yes
b) yes, but with hesitation
c) maybe
d) no
well i don't actually see what's wrong with their oath. i think it's great.
as far as your second paragraph goes, i think the issue there is 'impose'. that they will not 'impose' martial law or a state of emergency doesn't preclude them from helping if a state declares themselves in a state of emergency and asks for help.
Irrelevant. I've been working on that to get beyond the frustration and head shaking. Those in power today were elected or appointed to do a job, of which "power" meant something altogther different to citizens. As free men/women, we have the individual "power" to say no, and mean it.
ok well ashrak. i've found a video done by the oathkeepers, wherein one of the speakers, a soldier maybe in his mid twenties, says that he has personally seen the pamphlet i'm talking about and that from his experience most of the guys he's met in the army would.
just a video, but i'll find the rest.
yes. i'm saying that without the original intent being a heavy influence on legal interpretation, we are likely to continue to see lots of legislation from the bench.
i'm a little surprised that so many people here seem to disagree with me? i guess they agree with legislating from the bench maybe? hmm…maybe i'm in the wrong place. could've sworn this was biggov.
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