Reason.tv: Progress Party Leader Siv Jensen on Norway’s Myths and Realities
by Reason TVIn a country of exceptionally high rates of personal taxation and home to one of the world’s most generous welfare states, Norway’s Progress Party, which describes itself as a “classical liberal” organization committed to “personal freedom,” is something of an anomaly. But it is an increasingly powerful anomaly, now ranking as the country’s second biggest political party.
In August, Progress Party leader Siv Jensen sat down with Reason senior editor Michael C. Moynihan and explained that Norwegians are growing tired of “regulation, bureaucracy, and high taxes” and why the Scandinavian health care model is bad for America—and Scandinavia.
Approximately 5 minutes. Shot by Jim Epstein and Meredith Bragg. Edited by Josh Swain.
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81 Comments
The Progress Party is also unabashedly anti-immigration and wants to keep Norway for Norwegians. Maybe the GOP could learn a thing from them.
MCDONALD'S May Drop Health Plan; Seeks waiver from ObamaCare…
"McDonald's move is the latest indication of possible unintended consequences from the health overhaul. "
This is irrelevant to the libs. They act in defiance of history, studies, facts, figurse and logic. Obama ADMITTED as much when the data about the capital gains tax was shown to him. They just think if they hope and believe long and hard enough that unicorns will ride over the hills and save the planet that it will happen. Hell, I'm shocked we haven't set aside huge swathes of land for unicorn conservation already.
Norway is essentially a hellhole, but no one will challenge the narrative coming from the media.
70% taxation? Tyranny.
Unintended but not unanticipated.
Of course it was intended, it's just starting.
Barack Obama has said that it's that 'fundamental belief – I am my brother’s keeper, I am my sister's keeper' that makes America work. This is odd since the President hasn't bothered to help his poverty stricken aunt who is living on the street and getting $700 a month from the government.
Town Hall Questioner To Obama: "I'm Exhausted Of Defending You" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5GqYtrSzAo&fe....
Progressives are the party of hotdogs and beans.
"Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed."
Martin Luther King, Jr.
Quite right. It was intended.
I completely agree.
By the way, the only reason Norway hasn't already collapsed under it's economy crushing domestic policies is because it has a WEALTH of natural oil and gas that can make up the difference just enough to keep people fed and from rioting. Without that, this place would make Zimbawe look fiscally sound.
Wow. Progressives who are actually progressive. Some Europeans are worth emulating, after all!
So you are saying no black people welcome in Norway right? Your kind of place then?
Jerk.
Nothing, and I mean nothing, will change these socialist's collective mind. We have read about the epic failures of the UK's socialized medicine, also about Canada's failures. They still go pedal to the metal "forward" to the ruination of the best medical system on the planet. Sure it's expensive, however it will be even more so with the libtards running it.
You mean that movie Legend with Tom Cruise wasnt based on a true story? Damn!
Also famous for Eric Northman of True Blood, Satanic Black Metal, church burnings, and pagan revivialism.
Too expensive and if you think the insurance companies arent a mindless bureacracy also that make up the rules as they go along you're crazy. My father was just explaining to me how a blood test ordered by his physician in order to help with a diagnosis was deemed "experimental" due to a coding error and now he's on the hook for 900 dollars for it and the insurance company won't back down. F*ck them. Bankrupt them and enact a hostile take over which is what O's doing.
"Hope" and "change" are distraction words. Their intent was to "change" America into a 3rd world socialist wasteland and they "hoped" we wouldn't notice.
the one thing to remember about the Progressive movement is ALL roads lead to Rome…
Communists are Progressives. John McCain is a Progressive. Does that make brother Mccain a communist?
No.
Where they differ is in the rapidity of change, and the tactics used to achieve it. But the end is a government that has Total Control. Period.
This bunch here is no different. Like the Fabian society of England, they believe in an incremental approach to totalitarianism.
What they all have in common is they do not believe in free men and individual destiny…
I met this lady at the Americans For Prosperity's Summit in DC in August. She is sensational (and could be the next PM of Norway). She is a smoker and told us in her presentation that she cannot use her credit card to buy cigarettes! Even in the USA! Their government denies the charge at point of sale! Why, because of their National Healthcare. Smoking is BAD!
If the progs can do that there, ours are just chompin' at the bit to do it here!
It is things like this that help me understand why my great grandfather left his home country of Norway to come to these united States. I am left to wonder what it would be like to live in a world where a person could escape the tyranny being endured for a country where prosperity await those who seek to freely pursue it on their own merits without the interference of an overbearing and intrusive government.
Regardless, today's world deals the hand it does and with no escape like that possible, the only option remaining is to stand and fight for the nation in which I live. I like what this woman said and it is so true. We can make our own decisions, our own choices. We do not need government nannying.
Liberty – Something to die for.
Even Liberals can't stand Liberals.
"Poverty stricken aunt!!!?"
The only thing Auntie Obama lacks is gratitude! She won the frickin' lottery when she arrived in the US.
http://wbztv.com/local/obama.aunt.zeituni.2.19219...
You're delusional if you think a government run program is going to be any better. Already the reports are indicating health care will be more expensive, not to mention the doctors who are bailing.
Dream on !
Then they won't bother doing the blood test for your father because he's past his most productive years, etc. Brilliant.
Hence…Hellhole.
in the same vein, the only reason that Europe has been able to experiment with a socialist model is because the US has provided for their defense either outright or via NATO.
Same thing with Canada–the only thing that allows our universal medicare system to survive (so to speak) is being next door to the US, whose system has provided a safety valve.
A good side effect of a possible Tea Party landslide is that the rest of the world's flirtation with socialism will come to a crashing halt. For those nations that don't adopt a free market approach in order that their people be allowed to take care of themselves, F*** 'em.
"Progressives are the party of
hotdogs andbeans." There – fixed that for ya.No, what I am saying is that, if the Progress Party has its way, in 50 years Norway will still be Norwegian and the future of the country will be decided by the descendants of the people who founded Norway. If current demographic trends continue, in 50 years America will be mostly made up of the descendants of third-world immigrants and the posterity of America's founders will be a virtually powerless minority. If that's the future you want, then fine. I don't.
Jerk
Anti-Marxist, who the heck are you? What's with you and immigration? We are all immigrants, science says all humans came to where they are now from somewhere in Africa. Even Jewish creationism says something similar.
If we are all "from elsewhere", eventually, then we should be welcoming. If they follow our laws and respect our people, we should be accepting.
I wouldn't call Norway a hellhole. It consistently ranks higher than the United States in education, overall well being, happiness, health, and individual prosperity. It also has very low crime. If that's "hell" then hell doesn't sound too bad to me.
I also wouldn't use the word "tyranny" to describe Norway. It is a representative democracy. These policies are in place because people voted for them. Norwegians also get a lot more in exchange for their tax money because they don't have millions of illegals to pay welfare to and don't have never-ending foreign wars to finance. Plus, seats in the Norwegian parliament are apportioned based on proportional representation, which gives small parties a voice and allows parties like the Progress Party to emerge. This is much less "tyrannical" than the 2 party system we have here.
It's true that Norway benefits greatly from its oil reserves. But it would not be anywhere near Zimbabwe if it didn't have them. Most countries in Europe have systems similar to Norway and don't have massive oil reserves, yet they have very high standards of living – Sweden, Denmark, etc.
Immigration is good, but you can have too much of a good thing. Borders help to preserve. We already have all races here, plain as day, so why is anyone confusing the immigration issue with race is beyond frustrating to me.
In our schools we can't teach our founding principles or the constitution. Our Education system is in shambles. Debt, welfare, sexualized youth entertainment. We can't get our national purpose straight. Left and right quabble without any common ground. This battle will end — there will be respite — there will be a side that claims a victory. And this situation will change. I pray we – the Tea Party – wins decisively for now and into the future. But we are not there yet.
What will happen if you keep pouring water into wet cement, and mix it, but don't add cement powder? Pretty quick, you end up with a useless bunch of slop, that will never serve its purpose. What happens if you peel a fruit and leave it on the table for a few days? Can you not see that immigration unchecked is self-destructive?
"If they follow our laws and respect our people, we should be accepting. "
Is "This is left-wing multicultural nonsense"?
How so?
You are a racist. I'm starting to get sicker and sicker of the racism I see around here.
Disgusting.
So, you call someone you disagree with a "racist", that is also left-wing nonsense. There are 5 billion+ people living in the third world right now who would love to move the Europe or America and I'm sure the majority of them would follow the law if doing that allowed them to take advantage of the economies and generous welfare systems Western nations have created. So, do we let them all in?
And, yes, large scale LEGAL immigration from the third-world is also left-wing nonsense. We never had that in this country until Ted Kennedy's Immigration "reform" act in the 60s. This has paved the way for massive demographic changes that have led to the political situation we are in. Prior to the 1960s, immigrants came mostly from European countries, they had similar ethnic backgrounds to most Americans and came from similar, Western cultures. This is why immigration worked then but is a disaster now.
Yes, that's all very true and I agree 100%. Note that what you are saying isn't about "whites" or "racial majorities" or about "restricting immigration from x kind of countries."
We should have limits on immigration, and those who try to force their way in or sneak in shouldn't be allowed to stay, unless for amnesty purposes which may be temporary.
We are not amused by this tactic…
Did you create this nickname "AntiMarxist" because you couldn't get your message accross with another nickname?
The way to oppose the envy of class heirarchies in Marxism is not with racial envy!
Most of the immigrants in the world today are non-white. Practically all of the countries in the world today who are being flooded with immigrants are majority-white, Western nations. There is clearly a racial component to immigration.
"Whites also have the option to live off the system but it hasn't destroyed white culture."
That was something you said AntiMarxist…. What does defending white people and white culture have to do with opposing Marxism?
I think I'm catching on here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you a white supremacist baiter? I hope I'm wrong… but weren't the communist's biggest opponents the National Socialists?
I agree immigrant criminals should be kicked out. But that's different from restricting immigration through racial grounds.
Well, I'm not here for your amusement, You have no idea what you are talking about. The breakdown of the racial identity of the majority racial group in a nation is one of the primary objectives of Marxism. Why do you think that every left-wing group is so pro-immigration?
This is how it works. Marxism is about wealth distribution. In any society, the wealth is mostly held by people in the majority ethnic group. The people who Marxists want to redistribute the wealth to usually belong to minority ethnic groups. So, by breaking down the identity of the majority ethnic group and promoting nonsense such as "we are all the same." Marxists tear down a barrier to one of their primary goals because people are less likely to go along with redistributionist policies if they have a strong ethnic identity and the money is being transferred to a different ethnic group.
"There is clearly a racial component to AntiMarxist."
Fixed that for you.
Sorry I don't see your point. That comment was made about an entirely different subject and has nothing to do with immigration. But glad to see you are so intimidated by me that you feel the need to troll my profile and can't keep to the topic at hand.
I felt I could agree with you when you said the GOP could learn a thing or two from the Norwegians about their immigration policy — I wasn't sure though. Because you were being vague.
Here's where I have a problem with your argument. There's a racial component to immigration, but there's also a racial component to lots of things. It's called the human condition. Are you arguing that there's a racist, xenophobic aspect to the people who argue against wide open immigration? (people like you, I might add, which has me a little confused to be honest. I don't understand what you're getting at.)
If you feel we are racist, just look up a couple of paragraphs, I just gave an impassioned criticism of immigration to our country without using any racist arguments. And I think I represent most conservatives well with that argument.
The nation with the highest standard of living in Europe has the equivalent standard of living as our 49th worst state. So yes, they are worse off. Besides, what the WHO uses to calibrate "standards of living" are highly biased against US, and also slect out topics that would be favorable to us. Don't be fooled.
And no, no one had a level of socialism as high as Norway. They would be Zimbawe without rich oil supplies.
http://www.thefreemanonline.org/featured/scandina...
Cute. Care to reply to the substantive point I made or do you have nothing left but name-calling and accusations of "racism." You sound an awful lot like a Democrat.
Excellent point. when a nation doesn't have to pay for a military or its own defense, it certainly frees up a lot of money.
"Are you arguing that there's a racist, xenophobic aspect to the people who argue against wide open immigration? "
Of course not, then I would be calling myself a racist. There are plenty of common sense reasons to be opposed to immigration that are not racial. However, there is a racial component to the immigration debate. It is not realistic to say otherwise. Why else would La Raza, the NAACP, and every other left-wing race-based organization be so fanatical in its zeal to flood the country with more and more immigrants?
We are a Republic. We do not need to engage in "democracy" or MOB RULE.
The fact of the matter is that a government that steals from your pocket in excessive ways IS TYRANNICAL.
You get a vote? Great…but if the people who are "voting" don't know what power they are giving up (as in they have been indoctrinated), they will continue to make the false choice of Socialism and Marxism.
That is tyranny, as Mark Levin would call it, "Soft Tyranny". You get all of the appearances of "freedom", but if you fight against the established, ensconced infrastructure, you will be taken down in some form or another.
That's the same thesis you proposed earlier.
What's the "majority ethnic group" that you wish to protect against Marxists?
Come on, dude… tell it to us straight. We can understand what you are saying. But don't you know who you sound like?
Face facts, we all have our own interests. I'm half-"White/European/Aryan/British" myself and have respect for the people… like I have respect for all peoples. But I don't box myself into a racial corner… It's wrong to declare that G-d wanted there to be one "wealthy" people and no one else to have any.
Capitalism exists to redistribute wealth to those who make the greatest value to others.
No, I wasn't talking about just in Europe. Denmark and Sweden both have higher standards of living than the United States. What works in Europe won't necessarily work in America and vice versa. European countries tend to be small and mostly homogenous. America is large and diverse. This is why a generous welfare state can work in some European countries but not here.
Norway has an industrious, educated populous. It would never come close to Zimbabwe in terms of the standard of living regardless of its political or economic system.
I don't like racists.
I am also one of the most conservative on this board.
I think you are possibly an infiltrator, and/or a racist.
You can leave now.
We are a republic AND a representative democracy, so is Norway. People have a right to choose what kind of political system they have and what type of policies they put in place. If people in Norway want a country with a generous social safety net, then they have that choice. I wouldn't want it here, but the fact that people in Norway want it (and get it) does not make it a "tyrannical" country.
I have respect for all people as well and don't have hatred for any group. But that doesn't mean I have to deny reality. Look at the world around you. Open your eyes. Is it not obvious that race plays a role in the societies people build? Name one majority black country in the world that has a higher standard of living than America or Europe. Just one.
Once again, nothing substantive to add. You proved my point. I'll leave when I feel like it.
black is beautiful tan is grand but white is the color of the big boss man
What I don't get is if progressives want such a system how come they don't emigrate to the 20 or so countries that offer these systems. Even IF the US became like Norway tomorrow it would take 20 years to implement all these programs. Canada started its health care system in 1968. It took decades for them to get it to what it is today. These countries are already set up the way they want and they are filled with progressives.
Ok, Ok, so maybe we are being hard on you. But can you please relax your tribal instinct a bit? Americans are a nation, a democratic republic, and a people.
We may not always agree, certainly not on what "race" or "ethnic group" even means. Frankly I worry that those terms were made up to falsely divide us in the first place. But let's just admit that we have a culture and a nation and a constitutional system to protect.
Let's work together to protect these things, and not let our enemies pick us apart. Please just say it isn't about race, it's about the nation. And it is fine to say you oppose amnesty or the Ted Kennedy Immigration policies because they are unfair to most immigrants and destructive to the country.
I'm not saying you should lie if you really believe that these things are destroying white america and that's your real beef. I'm saying we must transcend political, racial, and economic class to make positive changes. If you agree with that, drop the "protect whites" line. Protect everyone.
And when it comes right down to it, every human is a bit racist sometimes
Equatorial Guinea – GDP per capita: $ 50,200
http://www.clickafrique.com/Magazine/ST014/CP0000...
Free your mind, please! We're all G-d's children.
This is from the link you posted about Equatorial Guinea: "Despite its high GDP per capita, majority of the population still live in sub standard conditions."
It has a high GDP because it recently discovered massive oil reserves. It has nothing to do with the intelligence or industriousness of its people.
So, no, I guess you can't name even one majority black country with the same standard of living as Europe or America.
You sure know a lot about black people for such a race neutral conservative.
I call infiltrator. This guy is a phony posting to discredit us.
Maybe even a Smedley sockpuppet.
http://biggovernment.com/publius/2010/09/29/reid-...
"I hope that one day the blacks wake up to what is actually happening."
They know this is happening and they love it. That is one of the main reasons they vote Democrat. I continue to be amazed at how many conservatives think that blacks are all benevolent children who are made of sugar and spice and everything nice. Most blacks hate you. I have lived around them my entire life. Most blacks think that white people invented AIDS to kill black people. If they honestly think this is how whites treat minorities, think of how they will treat us when we are the minority.
I am not sure how much of that last sentence you meant literally, but trust me, time is coming very soon that a lot of us will actually, literally, die for Liberty. The way things are going, and the way the entire Right is bewitched by 'i see November from my house', a useless election, which will only delay the FEELING of the damage which it can not stop, let alone reverse—i think, it is you and me, buddy; we, the people. And the only way this can end is in the streets of America. What a sad prospect.
Still trolling my profile I see. You can't argue with the points I am making so you have to go into personal attacks. Plus, everything I said was true. The truth is not always pleasant or politically correct.
It sounds like this progressive would like to "progress past" progressivism. Imagine that!
Just think of all the money that would be freed up if we would stop policing the world and spending billions to bomb countries in the Middle East, rebuild them, and remain indefinitely as permanent babysitters.
I am all for Fortress America
Tal Shakka mel
Great thread guys… I agree with almost everything everyone said….go figure.
My two cents……
Every ethnic group and race are given moral respect in promoting their group.
Minus one……Caucasian.
And, it is morally accepted when groups want to live in areas amongst themselves.
Minus one…..Caucasian.
Finally….If any Caucasian points this out or expresses an interest in living among their own…they are labeled racists. It appears then, Caucasians are the only race that can be racist.
Therefore, IMO…for what's it's worth, AntiMarxist on this issue, in this thread, is correct in his assumptions and his logic is sound.
I don't think that was his point at all, Harry–get control of your knee. Culture matters. Assigning racist qualities to cultural matters is fallacious. Words mean things. If they didn't, "is" could mean anything you want it to–just like Bill Clinton tried to use that word to delude the easily-deluded.
http://www.damronplanet.com/doublespeak/examples….
oragenoleptic analysis…..I'll have to remember that one to make myself seem smarter. I've never understood how Blacks can have pride in their race or African heritage, but if a white person does this, we are automatically called a racist or a KKK member? I'm proud of my mostly Upper Midwestern Germanic heritage, but I don't think my heritage is the only one God put on this Earth.
I'll just put this out there as well. I put my money where my mouth is when I say I don't even look at skin color. I moved from an all white upper midwestern town to the former Confederate Capital. I live in a neighborhood that is half black. My oldest works for an elderly black lady and helps her clean her house after Home Schooling. My kids have black friends and so do my husband and I.
I wonder if any of these leftists can say the same? I'm sure most of them live in their elitist neighborhoods and hire illegals to scrub their toilets and pay them substandard wages.
Like I and a few others keep saying, if we don't hold these people semantically culpable, we won't turn this crap around. Semantics is the refuge of tyrants and would-be tyrants..
There is a context here, this guy is making comments all over the place ideologically, many bordering on outright white supremacy.
For example
http://biggovernment.com/publius/2010/09/29/reid-...
Add to that he frequently posts in support of SmedleyB.
I do not trust this poster.
My father used to tell me that if I really wanted to hurt a guy, get into his wallet. Tyrants have always know that. You're right, Goo.
I retract my statement and apologize, Harry, I just went to his home page. You're right–low life.
No apology necessary bra.
This isn't even a point.
There are plethora of reasons for why African nations haven't reached standard of living comparable to European counterparts just as there are outstanding reasons for why China has been and still is largely mired in poverty even aftering hitting a bunch of lucky breaks these past 50 years. To assume that race, more so than weighty factors like environment, plays a much larger role in explaining why African countries are poor is to make a baseless racialist assumption where none is necessarily needed.
In essence, the aforementioned point above is why people here, and most reasonable people everywhere, are likely to call you a racist. Whatever point you were trying to make by giving your African example is lost to anyone that isn't a racist making wild assumptions.
Let's take a look at what I believe to be an honest assessment of your point, with the hidden assumptions included. Now, I don't assume I am 100% correct, so I'll leave it to the readers to evaluate the correctness of my reduction of the essential points of your argument.
Premise 1: Africans nations are poor and underdeveloped.
Premise 2: Europeans are more prosperous and richer.
Conclusion: It is obvious that the biological foundations that divide us into classifications of race explain perfectly the reasons why this is the case. White countries are better purely because they are uniformly more industrious and intelligent than blacks as a consequence of nature.
The conclusion, as I see it, does not follow. There are, in fact, many reasons for why African nations are poorer than whites. Lack of foreign investment, trade, racism, corruption, a culture of poverty and poverty in itself, brain drain to places like Europe and America (Obama's father, anyone?), etc. I could go on. My point is that it is fair to label you a racist for ignoring evidence and jumping directly to race.
Oh, and by the way, I am a liberal. I respect conservatives for their views and encourage debate. What I don't like is racism and THIS is the sort of virulent stuff that grows in these environments.
"My point is that it is fair to label you a racist for ignoring evidence and jumping directly to race."
And, it would be fair to label you an idiot for not being able to notice the obvious. Almost every white nation in the world, regardless of its climate, history, or natural resources is prosperous and has a high standard of living. Every black nation in the world, regardless of its climate, history or natural resources, is a poor, backwards, hell hole . If you can't see that race plays a major part in this, you are delusional.
And to blame this on "racism" is ridiculous. The West gives African nations billions of dollars a year. If it weren't for us giving them food, they would all die out or retreat even more into barbarism.
Every pure white nation is the world benefits from geographical and geopolitical, and historical advantages that African nations do not have. All you've done here is assert the same point over and over, without going into any detail as to why you think race may play a significant part in explaining anything. The problem with this sort of logic is that correlation does not equal causation, and exceptions can make a great case for why you're wrong.
As discussed earlier, white nations benefit from their geography in potent ways that black nations do not. Perhaps the most prominent of those benefits arranges from the simple fact that Europe is a relatively small and insular continent where a few very rich countries have spread and exacerbated their wealth through an everincreasing travel and trade system made significantly more efficient by the formation of the EU. This has served to directly and indirectly lessen reliance on natural resources while still maintaining high GDP.
Countries like Moldova who are not part of the EU, have lower GDPs per capita than black Carribean nations like Jamaica, Trinidad, and Antigua. Notably this trend continues even under the EU with nations such as Croatia and Estonia, who despite being better for their membership, still persist in having marginally lower GDPs per capita than both Jamaica and Trinidad.
The fact that these three white nations exist make proof positive that being white doesn't mean equal having a less backward hellhole than being black. Climate and geography, in all of these examples, certainly do contribute to Moldova's versus Trinidad's or Jamaica's poverty, and were their situations reversed, perhaps this wouldn't be so.
As an aside, money being thrown at problems doesn’t always help, and when it doesn’t, it does not necessarily mean money will never help—only that the certain strategies have not worked. The billions of dollars going to Africa are not in the form of what truly inspires a reduction in poverty, which is job growth, education, etc. Poverty has been reduced in Asia, but that has been largely a result of increased trade. What matters in Africa is how and by whom money is used. Food given to Africa merely staves the fear of starvation; it does not improve conditions. This route one formula hasn’t yielded much progress. On the other hand, other strategies with more or less funding have produced results in isolated experiments, so it’s not as if research into Africa’s poverty isn’t producing interesting conclusions about the nature of the poor.
By the way, the only reason Norway hasn't already collapsed under it's economy crushing domestic policies is because it has a WEALTH of natural oil and gas that can make up the difference just enough to keep people fed and from rioting. Without that, this place would make Zimbawe look fiscally sound. Regards, Mary cna
I'm Norwegian and everything she say is a lie. She speak about Norway in a very negative way, and that our government rules the country totally wrong. She's wrong.
1. There is not monopoly in out health care reform. There are lots of private hospitals.
2. The reason why we have so high taxes is because our country "share" the benefits. DOES she tell what we have FREE college and university. Even if you want to study outside Norway, they pay you. When you start High School everyone who wants get a scholarship based on what your parents make. If your parents make around 50,000 dollars a year you'll get $ 6500 as a student every year.
3. Does she says that Norwegians earn on average around 350 000 NOK which is $ 60 000?
4. Her party is NOT the 2th biggest. Even though, no other parties will work with them cause of their racist opinions.
5. A person in Norway who work as a nanny, house cleaner or some low payed person will have the opportunity to take a holiday-trip to an other country. But in many other countries a person with the same job wont be able to do that.
This woman is running for prime minister. Why the hell is she telling lies to international media? First I thought this was some kind of corruption from the Republicans on the health care debate, like you never know…
- 15 year old girl
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