Saturday Open Thread: Shah Edition
by PubliusToday, in 1979, the Shah of Iran fled his country, ushering in the final steps towards the establishment of the current theocracy. He might have benefited from an image consultant.
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Today in history.
It has been a snowball rolling downhill ever since. Thirty-one years ia a long time. People should pay attention to history. It was the failed promises, and policies of Jimmah Carter that exacerbated the fall of the Shah, thusly ushering in a generation of hate and terrorism. One cannot mention the name of the Shah, without invoking the name of Carter, and it should come with an ephitet.
I hope the person uploading these articles is on the east coast instead of the left coast. It's 4:00 am in lefty land!
You're right on that one Cowboy!..Jimmy should
have stayed in Georgia cracking peanuts on
his head!!
………..and sent his Brother Billy to DC to run the Show. At least Billy had some semblance of a brain, and was wildly entertaining……….
During the mid 1970's, I had the opportunity to study in the UK for a year. I had several Iranian friends- most of whom were pro-shah and some not so much, but there was no expressed hatred of any kind. After returning to our respective homelands, we exchanged letters on a regular basis. Slowly, my letters were answered less and less frequently and finally there were none. I stopped writing for fear that my friends would be persecuted for communicating with a westerner in general and an American in particular.
Your both right on with Billy, he was certainly a character, and
probrably, would have made a better President then his brother,
even though he played the fool….Keep that Billy Beer, I bet
it's worth something by now, and there probrably aren't many
left still intact…
At first I thought that was a photoshop of His Majesty, King Barack the First; that's an indication of my mindset towards the current regime.
"Jimmah" was so damn sure of himself, so intelligent that no one could possibly have better solutions than he, that he took hubris to a whole new level, and the country to a whole new low. With King Barack, it's deja vu all over again. What's he going to screw up, a la "Jimmah" that will take a couple of generations, or another Reagan, to fix?
The Shah was a thug; the ayatollahs are thugs; Achmamenijad is a thug; the whole damn country has been and is now run by thugs. Time for the Iranians to replace their thugocracy with something more rational.
Check out the new version of "Mmm Mmm Mmm Barack Hussein Obama" at: http://www.myspace.com/rogerweber
A fun way to start off the weekend!
"The Shah was a thug," as they say, "but he was our thug." (Yes, I'm being facetious – don't yell).
And, here we are in 2010 with Obama AKA Carter Part Deux: A Very Bad Sequel
I was young and in the Army when this whole fiasco transpired Carter/Shah/hostages, I know something was not right but, could not put my finger on it. As they say hindsight is 20/20. Today I have the sage too not only know something is not right but, to see it is Carter all over again.
Humorously enough, I always firmly believed Billy Carter was Jimmah's "brain trust". Notice when Billy bit the big one, Jimmah deteriorated into a babbling, incoherent buffoon?
Waldo,
That is funny, and I couldn't agree with you more. When I saw the photo here, before I read the topic, my mind immediately thought it was a spoof on the Eddie Murphy flick "Coming to America". I thought it was the Dahli Bama and Mooshelle dressed in their lounging clothes.
I think you have summed up everything that is currently occurring; not only on the national stage, but on the world stage as well: "SOMETHING IS NOT RIGHT."
There is a difference between then and now. Carter was/is an idiot and he was rightly tagged and blamed for a lot of the stupid stuff going on in the '70s. The current crop are not idiots and many people are afraid of their offering… to the point of thinking about it. When the electorate starts to get smart about something the ruling class should worry!
I think we are seeing the beginning of the end of the false promise and lies that progressives have plagued our citizens with for over 100 years… only question now is how painful will it be to root out and rid ourselves of the systemic commie entrenchment.
You're being generous!….lol
I'm not so sure Obama is so smart…He reads well…I agree 100% that his puppet masters are smart, the ones pulling the strings and putting words in his mouth are the ones with the brains….You sure got it right!
Actually, Jimmy Carter has less to do with the fall of the Shah Pahlavi then perhaps Ayatollah Khomeini. Don't forget that the British were in Iran at the turn of the Century, long before we ever got our nose into things. Then there's the Russians who in the early 50's successfully invaded and divided the country of Iran into two parts. Russian to the North, and British to the South. But the Ayatollah Khomeini is probably most instrumental in overthrowing the Shah with his 'White Revolution' that was promising more rights for woman to vote and for all religious people being able to run for govt. offices. Even more important than the white revolution however was the ideology of Islamic Jurists. Where ever person was under the rule of Islamic Jurists, or leaders and that it was thought to prevent further westernization, and eliminate poverty and injustices that were perceived by the Shah. Radical Islam was well on it's way to becoming a reality 20 years before Carter showed up.
Actually, Carter's IQ is quite high. He was an officer in the nuclear Navy, no mean feat.
However, that doesn't mean he had any common sense or a clue about the dark side of man. He seems to think that Christian charity will win over any calloused thug.
This bunch is also highly intelligent, and have a clue about the dark side of man because, "they are one." They have common sense, or rather Chicago street smarts, and that's what's causing their slide. They think they can bully and lie their way through anything. it usually works up to a point and that point, I hope, has been reached.
It's time to send the thugs back to the Chicago sewers from whence they slithered.
I have had a personal connection to this, one of my class mates was part of the Shahs family. I remember when her father and several men in suits came to our class room. They spoke to our teacher, who started crying, then to her. That was the last time any of us heard from her.
Yep, common sense are the words that matter here…There
are a lot of smart people, educated, and with high IQ's but
without common sense, none of the rest means anything..
I know a little about Chi politics….I was born there and spent
my first 30 years there, right in the heart of it, "Mayor Daley's
neighborhood"…that's why I'm not a Democrat, I saw it firsthand..
You are correct.
Further into the mix, one must not fail to give credit where credit is due. Our CIA was instrumental in the Middle-East meddling and machinations. It all blew up, and backfired.
The Ayatollah Khomeni was in exile, in France, and saw the right opportunity and seized upon it.
Oddly enough, the Ayatollah Khomeini promised HOPE and CHANGE also……….
Actually, the invasion was in 1941, they just refused to leave when the war was over. But otherwise, you are spot on.
Thanks for the date, it's hard to condense roughly 100 years of history into 700-800 characters…lol
I am no fan of the current regime in Iran, and I too remember wigreat clarity the hostage taking in Iran.
Thank You for a great start to my saturday !!
Those were the good ol' days.
That robe is Old Skool!
Yeah, the Brits went from Tobacco to Oil. They always have been one's to know when to capitalize on a good seizing…
How long before we see hopey and the wookie rocking their new robes and crowns in public? I'm guessing they are already wearing them in the residence.
The Shah was a puppet installed by us to counter the Soviet threat in the 1950s. He ruled by terror and left with little support. He earned the hatred he received and the armed escort out of town. We should learn from our mistakes.
too bad we supported his murderous regime. I am no defender of the murderous regime that replaced it, but actions do have consequences.
time to reevaluate our foreign policy.
we are also the country (via the CIA) who put Saddam Hussein in power.
In 1953 the U.S. helped overthrow the Prime Minister of Iran which had the effect of making the sitting Shah dictator for life. Blaming the Shah on Carter ignores the sins of Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon and Ford.
But don't let facts get in the way of a good neocon rant…
Yep.
Imagine that. All the problems we face have one common denominator: the CIA.
Perhaps therein lies an answer………..
Yeah, whatever happened to the "good old days"? You know, before the peasants learned to spell "school".
Jimmy Carter also tried to end our dependence on foreign oil as a matter of national security. Seems the peanut farmer was right on that one.
Then Reagan rolled back all the progress Carter tried to make on this issue.
I liked Reagan, the guy had a knack for humor and humility as POTUS, but his policies regarding our dependence on foreign oil sucked.
Not to mention his motto….. deficits don't matter………. ahhhh rose colored glasses look sweet!
I see history differently. It appears to be a series of progressive reforms that are changes resisted by conservatives and eventually accepted as conventional logic. Things like slavery, women's suffrage, civil and voters rights, Medicare, Social Security.
Seems like the struggle always ends the same… we win. The future will be much the same.
Well to be fair, we tried stupid and he barely made it out of DC before the economy tanked. Probably ought to stick with smart.
if jimmah carter and his band of merry lib wusses had stayed away from iran’s internal affairs we wouldn’t be experiencing many of the problems we’re having today. carter’s frank church solution to the worlds’ bad guys has resulted in many americans dead, or maimed. today, many of the terrorists would now be reduced to skeletal remains with a bullithole through their skull, resting in some obscure hole in the desert.
Ah, the puppet dictator our CIA put in power in a coup called Operation Ajax. And since Americans are KEPT IGNORANT about that, they are easily led in to the "why do they hate us" mindset. You don't know because you have allowed an unjust and unaccountable entity to trade in YOUR NAME and you are willfully ignorant about it.
As for theocracies, there is one we give BILLIONS of dollars to that has a RELIGIOUS SYMBOL on their flag and is another reason we are hated.
The people PROFITING from all this hatred generated against the American people couldn't care less. YOU ARE BEING USED.
Reza Shah Palavi did strenghten the Gov. of Iran and restrained the tribal chiefs. He provided puplic education, improved infrastructure, abolished the wearing of the veil, educated the women and put them back in the work force. His son Mohammad Reza Palavi took over and introduced the White Revolution which consisted of major land reforms, workers rights and womens rights. The people of Iran were encourged to take part in art, music, poetry and some self expression. Freedom of speech was still repressed. He was not perfect but under his rule the Iranians had much more freedom. The Ayatollah Khomeini backed by Americas most forgettable president, Jimmy Carter took over the country and pushed it back to the dark ages. Now, run by a mesionic cult the Iranians are once again fighting their Gov. for freedom as they have done so many times before.
Massachusetts Miracle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nEoW-P81-0
Go! Scott Brown!
"Ah, the puppet dictator our CIA put in power in a coup called Operation Ajax."
You forgot to put "back" before "power" and after "in."
"And since Americans are KEPT IGNORANT about that,"
Oh puhlEAZE. Operation Ajax is shouted about from every Ivory Tower in this nation's universities, and while I could make a case that it is part of keeping people ignorant, I could hardly say it is keeping people ignorant ABOUT THAT.
"they are easily led in to the "why do they hate us" mindset."
Read. the. Damn. Koran. And. Qutb's. Milestones.
"You don't know because you have allowed an unjust and unaccountable entity to trade in YOUR NAME and you are willfully ignorant about it."
No, YOU don't know because YOU think the Jihad started in the 50's, or at earliest Post-WWI. You have no idea why a Persian originally tried to sink an ocean line in Nineteen OH TWO while screaming "Allahu Ackbar", because the blinds on your view of history don't allow you to think about that. It is ALWAYS the West's fault.
"As for theocracies, there is one we give BILLIONS of dollars to that has a RELIGIOUS SYMBOL on their flag and is another reason we are hated."
Yes. The Saudis certainly are pricks, aren't they Oh, wait, you were talking about the democratic nation of Israel in SPITE of the fact that Israeli Muslims and Israelis of other faiths have equal rights, Ja?
"The people PROFITING from all this hatred generated against the American people couldn't care less. YOU ARE BEING USED."
No, YOU are being used, because if it isn't caused by the evil, amorphous weapons manufacturers, oil barons, CIA, or all of the above, you don't recognize its existence. Which is why idiots such as yourself are not fit to comment about this.
I disagree. The struggle is mostly the dems trying to get into everyone's pocket, succeeding for a time until it becomes apparent that their policies stifle economic prosperity; then, we elect people who not only read a few economics books, but also ran businesses in the real world, know that dems' tax and spend policies don't work, and get us back on track again, until the general populace decides it wants to vote itself more comfort.
Slavery, by the way was done away with by "radicals" of the day, the Republicans. The dems were hell bent on preserving it. Medicare and Social Security, oxymorons if you think about it, are nice until the pushers cast aside the actuarial tables they used to sell them to the public, and start running deficits.
Voters' rights were fought tooth and nail by the dems of the Solid South – so-called "solid" because it was solid democrat, a holdover from the Civil War when to be a Republican in the South was to identify with Abraham Lincoln and the party that did in the Confederacy.
Women's suffrage was fought strenuously by Woodrow Wilson, a prominent dem you may recall. He jailed the suffragettes.
The process you seem to be describing is Hegel's Dialectic, a central theme of Marxism-Leninism in which "progress" towards total takeover of the means of production, private property, civil liberties, and towards general perdition is just a simple matter of two steps forward, one step back.
Ask the former Soviet Satellite countries what they think about that particular form of "progressive reform." They'll give you an earful. They're trying desperately to get to where we were before we elected idiots who can't balance budgets, and I'm talking about both parties.
To paraphrase Chris Kristoferson, rendered by Janis Joplin in "Bobby Magee," "Progressive reform's just two words for nothing left to spend."
"Our bad relationship with Iran did not start there however in all honesty."
No, it started even EARLIER. Probably in the late 19th century, after several religious killings against American missionaries that led the Marines to temporarily seize parts of the Shat Al Arab. And WWI, when the British and Russian forces occupied the nation to prevent the Turks from inspiring a holy war in the nation and to obtain another way to supply Russia.
"This covert act was done to protect the profits of British and American oil companies."
Not particularly. Perhaps slightly, yes, but that wasn't the main reason. We were far less concerned about who owned the damn thing (the British were slightly more interested in keeping that intact, but in the end, it was a secondary objective for them), but whether we would be able to keep getting oil from it. The Anglo-Iranian oil concession had been a VERY large strategic asset for the West in the two World Wars, and it retained that importance in the first years of the Cold War. Mossadegh's affinity with the Soviets was well known, and it is well worth noting that the Soviets had occupied Northern Iran just fifteen years before, and had only left (long after the Western Allies had removed all but a tripwire force) less than eight years before, and their intelligence apparatus remained very much active (as can be seen by Mossadegh's ascension in the first place).
That, and couple that with the fact that the Western Allies had narrowly beaten back a Soviet attempt to occupy the concession in 1946, and they lacked a solid base to project influence into Central Asia after the independence of India, and there was a very real concern over if we could keep receiving the oil post nationalization .
Now, I do believe that Ajax was at least premature, and largely motivated by Ike's desire to make good with London and Paris after repeatedly snubbing them for no good reason whatsoever, but it was not the entirely unethical and unnecessary sabotage most paint it as. Personally, I would have tried to open negotiations with Mossadegh and told him that we would tolerate his annexation if we were guaranteed continued access to the site (even in the event of a world war), that the Soviets would not be allowed to take it over, and if the Soviets and their puppets were to be denied any bases in Iran whatsoever. If he had refused, THAT would have been the time to punch his ticket. His replacement should probably not have been the Shah (preferably a Center-Right Democratic Republican who was just tolerable enough for the Soviets to not get killed). However, hindsight is 20/20, and with the Suez slipping out of the West's hands (in large part thanks to Ike actions like a f***ing idiot), we had good reasons to fear it.
In my opinion, Ajax presents the perennial issue: to what extent is the West justified in subverting Democracy abroad in order to defend it at home and elsewhere on the world stage?
I cannot claim to have an answer to that, and I don't believe anyone does.
Don't you mean "back when the peasants learned to spell "school" CORRECTLY" ?
You REALLY don't know what Carter was like, DO you? Bush wasn't the brightest bulb in the box, but he did far better than Carter, unless you forgot (or don't know) what "stagflation" is.
"I see history differently. It appears to be a series of progressive reforms that are changes resisted by conservatives and eventually accepted as conventional logic."
Ah, the Alinskyite, anti-Sysiphean model where all roads lead to progress. Just out of curiousity, what do you think would have happened if Germany had won WWI or WWII or the USSR had won the Cold War?
"Things like slavery"
Perhaps you forget who was the main driving force behind opposition to THAT in the States?
"women's suffrage"
And this explains the extremely Conservative British government enacting that… how?
"civil and voters rights"
Broke down more along racial lines than on ideological ones (unless we count explicitly racist ideologies, which coexisted with a wide variety of economic and social ones).
"Medicare, Social Security."
So, you count two money drains that are helping to burn a hole through the floor of the treasury as POSITIVE things?
"Seems like the struggle always ends the same… we win."
SEEMING is vastly different from what actually IS. Case in point: Africa.
"The future will be much the same"
Only a fool who does not know the close calls Democratic Republicanism has suffered in the past could look at the future with that smug, arrogant self-confidence. You're like teenagers who think they are invincible right until the train comes and rips you in half while you are trying to play chicken with it.
Yeah, right! Now we're trying "stupid-smart." It's not working.
I'll take common sense and empathy for people who work their asses off for their livings, both business owners and workers. Taxing until it hurts stifles business which, in turn, eliminates jobs for the workers. Unions, who have a beneficial role to play as long as they stay honest, have driven and continue to drive our production to cheaper venues, leaving the working stiffs with progressively lower paying jobs, if they can find them.
I've had my fill of "smart guys" like McGeorge Bundy, Robert McNamara, Robert Rubin, Lawrence Summers, Tim Geithner. I spent a year getting shot at while those f******* realized they had screwed up but were so invested in their own intellectual egos they couldn't bear to walk themselves back, even if it meant killing thousands more of our GIs.
Give me someone who used to be a dem, was mugged by reality, became a conservative, who is not necessarily a first-rate intellect, but knows enough to get out of the rain, and knows how to stimulate the country and not take BS from bullies…wait! Am I describing Ronald Reagan? God bless him and RIP.
Maybe my first characterization wasn't accurate. Maybe now were trying "Stupid Smart Dishonest." Yeah, I'm pretty sure that describes the talking head behind the teleprompter I see all too often staring out at me, "Mussolini-like" acting out his disdain for our Republic, convincing us that his OJT is really just careful deliberation. It's actually his need to take private classes disguised as consultations with his advisors in things he should have had some experience with before he decided to sell his snake oil to a gullible electorate.
And it ALSO ignores the sins of Mossadegh and the Soviets, who if anything were the main authors of 1953. Ajax was a heavy-handed and extremely ill-conceived attempt at damage control to try and prevent the threat of a major strategic resource (namely the Anglo-Iranian oil concessions) from falling into enemy hands.
I cannot say like it or that I think they did everything right, but at some point in time one has to ask where self-preservation is necessary.
And it also ignores the fact that Carter DID handle the 1979 crisis in a ridiculously incompetent manner.
"The Shah was a puppet installed by us"
Not really. He was a tin-pot tyrant already in power (who we returned to power after a brief interlude), andhis actions could hardly be considered those of a puppet (for instance, refusing to allow US bases in Iran in spite of the fact that the Soviets were conducting "training exercises" dangerously close to the Oil concessions).
Other than that, I agree with you.
My first boss was Persian. When the Shah fell, he took a two week leave of absence. We never heard from him again. I've always wondered what happened.
Now, that was funny! "he's yo daddy and yo mommy!"
" think we are seeing the beginning of the end of the false promise and lies that progressives have plagued our citizens with for over 100 years… "
No, I'm afraid you're probably wrong. They've had many years to indoctrinate our youth – ever wonder why the push to put everyone in college? – the easier to control their flaccid, little minds that were destroyed by their primary and high school "education." I think Mikatollah proves my point!
[...] Here is the original post: » Saturday Open Thread: Shah Edition – Big Government [...]
And Billy was a heck of a marketer… gave us "Billy Beer"… think I may have a can or two left somewhere in my storage shed.
The Shah was definitely not squeaky clean and I always realized that. When Ayatollah Khomeini took over, I feared for my friends and did not wish to innocently place anyone in danger for corresponding with me.
“I did not know it then – perhaps I did not want to know – but it is clear to me now that the Americans wanted me out. Clearly this is what the human rights advocates in the State Department wanted … What was I to make of the Administration’s sudden decision to call former Under Secretary of State George Ball to the White House as an adviser on Iran? Ball was among those Americans who wanted to abandon me and ultimately my country.” – Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, the Shah of Iran
Carter was used as a tool or "useful idiot" as the Soviets used to say by the Soviets and France and it worked as the Soviets ended up getting an ally of the West out of their backyard. Yeah the Shah was brutal putting down the same types who run that country now and that we are hunting in Afghanistan.
John Kerry attack Scott Brown, what a surprise http://tinyurl.com/ygzmsst
Quite so. The "education" happening in our public schools and universities is despicably sparse. It has been replaced by indoctrination. How "educated" someone has become at the hands and in terms of our modern institutions and universities is really just a measure of how indoctrinated they have become. I know this from firsthand experience. The word "education" in our time is almost exclusively a Statist buzzword; like the words "tolerance," "racist," and "rights," its original meaning is found only in dictionaries and almost never portrayed transparently by the current rhetoric of those in power.
I'll go along with "we should learn from our mistakes" (with a reluctant and provisional acceptance of you being part of the same "we" I belong to).
Did you notice Obama trying to put Zelaya back in power in Honduras? The US trying to prop up another tinpot dictator…
heheheh. Any bets Obama is trying to find a wall that tall to cover with gold leaf?
Yes, things certainly did backfire, no doubt about that. We just happened to be the last one's caught with our hand in the proverbial cookie jar. I hate to defend Carter on any front, but he does deserve credit for at least attempting to do anything. We were just a day later, and a few million dollars short of succeeding on that mission.
More so, there really was no singular person to blame for the overthrow of the Shah so much as an ideology. Ever since the end of the Persian Constitutional Revolution in 1911, the crap started to hit the fan for Iran. Arrogance and greed by a theocracy short on money was the first step to creating a 'holy' state and an environment that would soon bread radicalism. So, we should ask Iran today…How's that hope and change working out for ya? LOL
As long as we are talking history, one must give honorable mention to the Brit; William Knox D'Arcy and the old APOC (Anglo-Persian Oil Company). He was the first, and a visionary. Oil has driven that cesspool since 1901.
Thank you Turtler for a very intelligent response to my post. You make some salient points, some I agree with completly.
But to be very clear the intent was not to mark the 'start' of bad blood between the Middle East and the West, clearly you are not in need of a lesson on Midieval history from me.
It was simply the intent of my post to to put in perspective for people that we are not without any blame here whatsoever.
Exactly, the intrin President Mitchellitti took the job reluctantly in order to defend his democtatic Countries Constitution, that Obama, I wond ho he missed that?
The era of hate and terrorism began with the CIA's program called Operation Ajax. What you saw was the reaction. The CIA even did a report on it calling it "blowback." A country touting its support of democracy shouldn't go around overthrowing them and replacing them with kings.
Certainly supported Hussein and his WAR against IRAN. So, let's discard this neocon-BS-rhetoric that we are hated for our freedoms. It is childish.
Ayyyyy, this guy knows what he is talking about!
At first glance it looks like Obambi and Me-shell vamping for the white house press corp. Some how Robert Reich got in between them.
freaky.
Whoop-tee-do…You found something to brag about Jimminy Cricket!
Where did you find your info, on a left wing blog, or a left wing newspaper,
or both?….If what you say is true, I'll give the loser a point….lol
Billy was the smart one!
Actually we played both sides against each other. The fact is that is was a match of evil bastard #1 vs. evil bastard #2. If anyone had won that war one evil bastard would have the resources and land of the ancient Persian Empire. Doesn't mean the war and its million+ casualties was some kind of triumph for democracy, but in all likelihood it prevented a terror-backing regional superpower from rising up.
We are hated for our freedoms, for the freedoms we give all faiths and women. Every terrorist constantly points that out. They mostly cite whatever geo-political blunder Foggy Bottom and our intelligence agencies commit to give lefties such as yourself ammunition to cloud the issue and weaken our will. They're very press savvy, the terrorists, and they play you like a fiddle.
At first glance this I thought this was a photo of 'date' night in NYC. My bad.
Billy Beer!
Yes, and it was planned even before that with the PROGRESSIVE/COMMUNIST/SATANIC MOVEMENT (WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT)! PREMIER KRUSCHEV SAID IT BEST FOR THE USSR IN THE U.N. IN THE EARLY SIXTIES—YOU GRAND CHILDREN WILL BE "YOUR CHOICE OF WORDS" WITHOUT US FIRING A SHOT!!!
WE DID IT TO OURSELVES WITH "WEAK-KNEE PEOPLE" BEING POLITICALLY CORRECT!!!
CONGRATULATIONS!!!
Wow, good thing I got y'all to fix dat 4 mee.
Don't s'pose I did it on purpus do ya?