Federalist No. 39: The Conformity of the Plan to Republican Principles
by PubliusTo the People of the State of New York:

THE last paper having concluded the observations which were meant to introduce a candid survey of the plan of government reported by the convention, we now proceed to the execution of that part of our undertaking. The first question that offers itself is, whether the general form and aspect of the government be strictly republican. It is evident that no other form would be reconcilable with the genius of the people of America; with the fundamental principles of the Revolution; or with that honorable determination which animates every votary of freedom, to rest all our political experiments on the capacity of mankind for self-government. If the plan of the convention, therefore, be found to depart from the republican character, its advocates must abandon it as no longer defensible.
What, then, are the distinctive characters of the republican form? Were an answer to this question to be sought, not by recurring to principles, but in the application of the term by political writers, to the constitution of different States, no satisfactory one would ever be found. Holland, in which no particle of the supreme authority is derived from the people, has passed almost universally under the denomination of a republic. The same title has been bestowed on Venice, where absolute power over the great body of the people is exercised, in the most absolute manner, by a small body of hereditary nobles. Poland, which is a mixture of aristocracy and of monarchy in their worst forms, has been dignified with the same appellation. The government of England, which has one republican branch only, combined with an hereditary aristocracy and monarchy, has, with equal impropriety, been frequently placed on the list of republics. These examples, which are nearly as dissimilar to each other as to a genuine republic, show the extreme inaccuracy with which the term has been used in political disquisitions.
If we resort for a criterion to the different principles on which different forms of government are established, we may define a republic to be, or at least may bestow that name on, a government which derives all its powers directly or indirectly from the great body of the people, and is administered by persons holding their offices during pleasure, for a limited period, or during good behavior. It is ESSENTIAL to such a government that it be derived from the great body of the society, not from an inconsiderable proportion, or a favored class of it; otherwise a handful of tyrannical nobles, exercising their oppressions by a delegation of their powers, might aspire to the rank of republicans, and claim for their government the honorable title of republic. It is SUFFICIENT for such a government that the persons administering it be appointed, either directly or indirectly, by the people; and that they hold their appointments by either of the tenures just specified; otherwise every government in the United States, as well as every other popular government that has been or can be well organized or well executed, would be degraded from the republican character. According to the constitution of every State in the Union, some or other of the officers of government are appointed indirectly only by the people. According to most of them, the chief magistrate himself is so appointed. And according to one, this mode of appointment is extended to one of the co-ordinate branches of the legislature. According to all the constitutions, also, the tenure of the highest offices is extended to a definite period, and in many instances, both within the legislative and executive departments, to a period of years. According to the provisions of most of the constitutions, again, as well as according to the most respectable and received opinions on the subject, the members of the judiciary department are to retain their offices by the firm tenure of good behavior.
On comparing the Constitution planned by the convention with the standard here fixed, we perceive at once that it is, in the most rigid sense, conformable to it. The House of Representatives, like that of one branch at least of all the State legislatures, is elected immediately by the great body of the people. The Senate, like the present Congress, and the Senate of Maryland, derives its appointment indirectly from the people. The President is indirectly derived from the choice of the people, according to the example in most of the States. Even the judges, with all other officers of the Union, will, as in the several States, be the choice, though a remote choice, of the people themselves, the duration of the appointments is equally conformable to the republican standard, and to the model of State constitutions The House of Representatives is periodically elective, as in all the States; and for the period of two years, as in the State of South Carolina. The Senate is elective, for the period of six years; which is but one year more than the period of the Senate of Maryland, and but two more than that of the Senates of New York and Virginia. The President is to continue in office for the period of four years; as in New York and Delaware, the chief magistrate is elected for three years, and in South Carolina for two years. In the other States the election is annual. In several of the States, however, no constitutional provision is made for the impeachment of the chief magistrate. And in Delaware and Virginia he is not impeachable till out of office. The President of the United States is impeachable at any time during his continuance in office. The tenure by which the judges are to hold their places, is, as it unquestionably ought to be, that of good behavior. The tenure of the ministerial offices generally, will be a subject of legal regulation, conformably to the reason of the case and the example of the State constitutions.
Could any further proof be required of the republican complexion of this system, the most decisive one might be found in its absolute prohibition of titles of nobility, both under the federal and the State governments; and in its express guaranty of the republican form to each of the latter.
“But it was not sufficient,” say the adversaries of the proposed Constitution, “for the convention to adhere to the republican form. They ought, with equal care, to have preserved the FEDERAL form, which regards the Union as a CONFEDERACY of sovereign states; instead of which, they have framed a NATIONAL government, which regards the Union as a CONSOLIDATION of the States.” And it is asked by what authority this bold and radical innovation was undertaken? The handle which has been made of this objection requires that it should be examined with some precision.
Without inquiring into the accuracy of the distinction on which the objection is founded, it will be necessary to a just estimate of its force, first, to ascertain the real character of the government in question; secondly, to inquire how far the convention were authorized to propose such a government; and thirdly, how far the duty they owed to their country could supply any defect of regular authority.
First. In order to ascertain the real character of the government, it may be considered in relation to the foundation on which it is to be established; to the sources from which its ordinary powers are to be drawn; to the operation of those powers; to the extent of them; and to the authority by which future changes in the government are to be introduced.
On examining the first relation, it appears, on one hand, that the Constitution is to be founded on the assent and ratification of the people of America, given by deputies elected for the special purpose; but, on the other, that this assent and ratification is to be given by the people, not as individuals composing one entire nation, but as composing the distinct and independent States to which they respectively belong. It is to be the assent and ratification of the several States, derived from the supreme authority in each State, the authority of the people themselves. The act, therefore, establishing the Constitution, will not be a NATIONAL, but a FEDERAL act.
That it will be a federal and not a national act, as these terms are understood by the objectors; the act of the people, as forming so many independent States, not as forming one aggregate nation, is obvious from this single consideration, that it is to result neither from the decision of a MAJORITY of the people of the Union, nor from that of a MAJORITY of the States. It must result from the UNANIMOUS assent of the several States that are parties to it, differing no otherwise from their ordinary assent than in its being expressed, not by the legislative authority, but by that of the people themselves. Were the people regarded in this transaction as forming one nation, the will of the majority of the whole people of the United States would bind the minority, in the same manner as the majority in each State must bind the minority; and the will of the majority must be determined either by a comparison of the individual votes, or by considering the will of the majority of the States as evidence of the will of a majority of the people of the United States. Neither of these rules have been adopted. Each State, in ratifying the Constitution, is considered as a sovereign body, independent of all others, and only to be bound by its own voluntary act. In this relation, then, the new Constitution will, if established, be a FEDERAL, and not a NATIONAL constitution.
The next relation is, to the sources from which the ordinary powers of government are to be derived. The House of Representatives will derive its powers from the people of America; and the people will be represented in the same proportion, and on the same principle, as they are in the legislature of a particular State. So far the government is NATIONAL, not FEDERAL. The Senate, on the other hand, will derive its powers from the States, as political and coequal societies; and these will be represented on the principle of equality in the Senate, as they now are in the existing Congress. So far the government is FEDERAL, not NATIONAL. The executive power will be derived from a very compound source. The immediate election of the President is to be made by the States in their political characters. The votes allotted to them are in a compound ratio, which considers them partly as distinct and coequal societies, partly as unequal members of the same society. The eventual election, again, is to be made by that branch of the legislature which consists of the national representatives; but in this particular act they are to be thrown into the form of individual delegations, from so many distinct and coequal bodies politic. From this aspect of the government it appears to be of a mixed character, presenting at least as many FEDERAL as NATIONAL features.
The difference between a federal and national government, as it relates to the OPERATION OF THE GOVERNMENT, is supposed to consist in this, that in the former the powers operate on the political bodies composing the Confederacy, in their political capacities; in the latter, on the individual citizens composing the nation, in their individual capacities. On trying the Constitution by this criterion, it falls under the NATIONAL, not the FEDERAL character; though perhaps not so completely as has been understood. In several cases, and particularly in the trial of controversies to which States may be parties, they must be viewed and proceeded against in their collective and political capacities only. So far the national countenance of the government on this side seems to be disfigured by a few federal features. But this blemish is perhaps unavoidable in any plan; and the operation of the government on the people, in their individual capacities, in its ordinary and most essential proceedings, may, on the whole, designate it, in this relation, a NATIONAL government.
But if the government be national with regard to the OPERATION of its powers, it changes its aspect again when we contemplate it in relation to the EXTENT of its powers. The idea of a national government involves in it, not only an authority over the individual citizens, but an indefinite supremacy over all persons and things, so far as they are objects of lawful government. Among a people consolidated into one nation, this supremacy is completely vested in the national legislature. Among communities united for particular purposes, it is vested partly in the general and partly in the municipal legislatures. In the former case, all local authorities are subordinate to the supreme; and may be controlled, directed, or abolished by it at pleasure. In the latter, the local or municipal authorities form distinct and independent portions of the supremacy, no more subject, within their respective spheres, to the general authority, than the general authority is subject to them, within its own sphere. In this relation, then, the proposed government cannot be deemed a NATIONAL one; since its jurisdiction extends to certain enumerated objects only, and leaves to the several States a residuary and inviolable sovereignty over all other objects. It is true that in controversies relating to the boundary between the two jurisdictions, the tribunal which is ultimately to decide, is to be established under the general government. But this does not change the principle of the case. The decision is to be impartially made, according to the rules of the Constitution; and all the usual and most effectual precautions are taken to secure this impartiality. Some such tribunal is clearly essential to prevent an appeal to the sword and a dissolution of the compact; and that it ought to be established under the general rather than under the local governments, or, to speak more properly, that it could be safely established under the first alone, is a position not likely to be combated.
If we try the Constitution by its last relation to the authority by which amendments are to be made, we find it neither wholly NATIONAL nor wholly FEDERAL. Were it wholly national, the supreme and ultimate authority would reside in the MAJORITY of the people of the Union; and this authority would be competent at all times, like that of a majority of every national society, to alter or abolish its established government. Were it wholly federal, on the other hand, the concurrence of each State in the Union would be essential to every alteration that would be binding on all. The mode provided by the plan of the convention is not founded on either of these principles. In requiring more than a majority, and principles. In requiring more than a majority, and particularly in computing the proportion by STATES, not by CITIZENS, it departs from the NATIONAL and advances towards the FEDERAL character; in rendering the concurrence of less than the whole number of States sufficient, it loses again the FEDERAL and partakes of the NATIONAL character.
The proposed Constitution, therefore, is, in strictness, neither a national nor a federal Constitution, but a composition of both. In its foundation it is federal, not national; in the sources from which the ordinary powers of the government are drawn, it is partly federal and partly national; in the operation of these powers, it is national, not federal; in the extent of them, again, it is federal, not national; and, finally, in the authoritative mode of introducing amendments, it is neither wholly federal nor wholly national.





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Why doesn't BigGovernment report the biggest news story in America that is going unreported? The biggest news story is the CODE of SILENCE that is being exercised by the MSM and government regarding the genuine MASS CONSPIRACY which prevents any open discussion or debate about ARTICLE 2 SECTION 1 of the U.S. Constitution as it pertains to Barack Oabama who is an illegal President! Folks we are not even allowed to just simply talk about it!
That's news! That's the truth! But Tiger Wood's sexcapade's are more important than a violation of the U.S. Constitution!
Oh Goodness, I LOVE THIS.
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There is now a Fourth and Fifth Branch of Government which is the MSM and Bureaucracy.
It's clear our present troubles stem directly from our inability to stay true to the ideals set forth by the above document. By the way, love the part where it speaks of government being administerd by persons seving with pleasure for a limited time, or during good behaviour.
Bigjournalism.com starts in January. Andrew has been talking about it for over a month but there has been several articles pertaining to this on both Biggovernment & BigHollywood.
excellent points…….ditto….
In 1862 President Lincoln began the printing of $450,000,000 worth of new bills. These bills were printed in green ink on the reverse side, in order to distinguish them from other bills in circulation, and were called, "Greenbacks". These were printed at no interest to the Federal Government and were used to pay the troops and purchase their supplies. President Lincoln would be the last President to issue debt free United States notes, and said, "The Government should create, issue and circulate all the currency and credit needed to satisfy the spending power of the Government and buying power of consumers. By the adoption of these principles…the taxpayers will be saved immense sums of interest. Money will cease to be master."
In response, The Times of London publishes a propaganda piece put out by the bankers "If that mischievous financial policy, should become indurated, then that government will furnish its own money without cost. It will pay off debts and be without a debt. It will have money necessary to carry on commerce. It will become prosperous beyond precedent in the history of the world. That government must be destroyed or it will destroy every monarchy on the globe."
Why is it that the direction that all of our governmental agencies are neither national nor federal? Thay answer strictly to their own self interest. There is no "national" consensus on health "reform", cap and trade and the stimulus. There never was. From a federal standpoint, do ALL of the States agree on the current course of action? Is national and federal part of the “checks and balances” no longer discussed amongst the “smart set”? These two no longer offset one another. They are both ignored…..What would “the People of the State of New York” say now, eh?
Thank You for tour reply! I will search for those articles that you speak of, I had not seen them.I hope you see the magnitude and seriousness of this situation. Mr. Indy1826, WE the PEOPLE of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA are being played for fools by our very own government where all of those involved right now, are the very least, committing perjury when it comes to their sworn oath to defend the U.S. Constitution! That is a crime! This crime is being perpetrated upon the taxpaying and non-taxpaying citizens of the U.S. by the government in collusion with the Main Stream Media! There's no doubt about it! There is some sort of cover up going on between the two perpetrator's! ARTICLE 2 SECTION 1 calls for a presidential candidate to be a "NATURAL BORN CITIZEN", there are three examples that I know of on historical record that defines NATURAL BORN CITIZEN to be defined has …being born to a mother and father whom both are to be citizens of the U.S. at the time of birth. We (I'm not alone on this) don't give a damn about the "birth certificate" issue! To us the b.c. issue is a diversion to thwart the real issue of Article 2 Section 1. Also this is not a case where WE the PEOPLE are asking the government for a interpretation of Article 2 Section, we are telling the government just exactly what it means…both parents must be U.S. citizens! Barack Obama's father was never a U.S. citizen! This gets even worse. I can go on and on! The Senate questions John McCains elegibillity requirements but not Obama's, and Obama was right there on the Senate panel participating. That sounds like another government conspiracy all in it self! Why the delay on Brietbart's behalf? the American people already lost a year to this illegal president. We need to pull up the slack of lost time and start pursuing justice for the American people now!
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I agree Totally Nutn2say, he is a Ursurper and the People are being played by the A$$ hole Democrates, they feel stupid now because they were played also but will not admitt it in order to save this Country, they will throw their own family under the bus in order to save face, IDIOTS all of them……Cowboy Up it's gonna get Nasty
How would Bigjournalism.com like to hit it off in January with a question that no one in the media wishes to ask or answer? If you all are interested, then read on! In Obama's Fight The Smears website, Obama stated the following:
"When Barack Obama Jr. was born on Aug. 4,1961, in Honolulu, Kenya was a British colony, still part of the United Kingdom’s dwindling empire. As a Kenyan native, Barack Obama Sr. was a British subject whose citizenship status was governed by The British Nationality Act of 1948. That same act governed the status of Obama Sr.‘s children."
Read the last sentence above again and carefully. Now, here is the question that I challenge Bigjournalism.com to ask and answer:
Thank You for your understanding! Let me put it another way. Our very own government is not only exercising contempt to the U.S. Constitution, I would also say that they are down right attacking the U.S. Constitution, something they are supposed to defend. Think about it, what does that say? If these sick people have no respect for the very same set of principles that they have sworn oath to defend as prescribed in the "LAW of the LAND, the U.S. Constitution! What does it say about the level of respect that they have for the American taxpayers and citizens? I will tell you, they have none!
Ask yourself how many school board, county commission or city council seats went unopposed with only one name on the ballot in your last local election…?
Now ask yourself….
Why?
You've hit on something very important. Stay tuned for more developments on this at Big Government.
The Republicans are playing us also. McCain was not a natural born citizen (not born in the US) and Bobby Jindal (not born to US citizens), one of their rising stars for 2012, is also not a natural born citizen.
Thanks for the heads up!
I'll be looking for the info soon on BG!
Send a heart felt Thank You to Andrew on behalf of http://912communique.ning.com and keep up the good work you guys and FOX are the only journalists and investigative reporters left in America it seems…
We would be sunk without you guys!
I just got an email from TexomaEd and saw your post, I've been doing my fax campaign on this issue for the past 3 hours *sigh* but I think I've faxed between 150-200 Republicans so far demanding they stand up on this issue!
Big journalism won't be the first web site to expose media bias, will it somehow overcome the media giants whole others like Newsmax and Media Research Center have sorta been unable to generate enough buzz to get the state run press to report on the stories that they don't want to report on? I have high hopes because Mr. Breitbart has a talent.. But doubts because .. well.. think about it this way. Say you were a construction contractor. (the media) And you had been telling your client about what exacting methods you were undertaking to build a magnificent skyscraper. How it was riveted by master craftsmen and waterproof with all sorts of technical engineering wonders. Would you tell this client later that in fact the upper 50 stories had been made of cardboard facade, hoping that a plea of "now I'm being honest" would not still get him fired?
So I have doubts. The American people need to wake up. We are at risk of bailing out these media institutions that lie to us institutionally. It is quite possible that this situation could become entrenched for decades, like the BBC..
Internet/blog post of the year. [IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v331/ksonksen/S...
Every one should read every one of them, just finished Common Sense, which should also be used for discussion more often.
Unfortunately, corruption is on both sides of the aisle!! The Republicans are doing NOTHING to stop what this administration is doing to America! We have NO ONE in Washington that represents the people of this country anymore! If they won't stop themselves from totally destroying this country, WE will have to stop them ourselves!!!
Just in case you didn't know the Federal Reserve is a private company of bankers with twelve branch banks that confiscate our money and they have been doing this for almost a hundred years,— this time!They are not part of the United States Government. Yet today they collect hundreds of billions of dollars from American taxpayers every year.
Thomas Jefferson was adamantly opposed to the idea of a privately owned federal bank and said " I sincerely believe the banking institutions having the issuing power of money are more dangerous to liberty than standing armies". In December 1913 while many members of Congress were home for Christmas, the Federal Reserve Act was rammed through Congress and was later signed by President Wilson. At a later date, Wilson admitted with remorse, when referring to the Fed."I have unwittingly ruined my country".
Sound familiar???
There are so many questions that revolve around this issue So many cover ups regarding his eligibility to be President and his lack of complicity to show his birth certificate. Still one more issue crops up while reading an article on American Grand Just this statement was made " it has just been uncovered recently that his Social Security number may have been issued in Connecticut between 1976 and 1977. During this time, Obama was residing in Hawaii and attending prep school. He did not move to the mainland (LA to go to Occidental College) until late 1979. And as far anyone knows Obama never resided in Connecticut. This begs the question how did the president get a Connecticut Social Security card when he never resided in the Constitution State?" Each day we hear something new regarding this issue The Presidents silence speaks volumes to this issue. Isn't this enough to cause concern and for us to dig further?
Don't get me wrong, I am in 100% agreement with you on that. In fact I get in trouble sometimes for saying this but I strongly put the blame for this illegal president and other matters as well directly on the Republicans! I expect the contemporary Democrats to do what they can to bastardize the U.S. Constitution, but I didn't expect that of the Republicans whose platform principles are much like what the Founding Fathers had intended. The Republicans who act like little cowards towards the socialistic Democrats betrayed the U.S. Constitution!
Thank You dot! Please keep up your good work!
I've been saying lately… where in the hell are the Republicans? Why don't they stand up and defend the Constitution? The silence from the Republicans about this makes them complicit as well committing the CRIME OF THE CENTURY that the MSM is unable to make national reports on! A constitutional crime is in active play right now this very moment and the MSM is covering it up by not reporting on it which in turn makes the MSM complicit in this crime too!
NUTN2SAY
There seems to be a lot of fear in Congress these days. Unfortunately the fear is not 'of the people' but of certain people, mainly the thugs in power positions. If we want the few brave souls remaining to stand for us –they need to know we have their backs.
Like the outpouring for Joe Wilson when he dared to state the truth "You Lie!" to oBama.
So when you hear or read where someone does the 'right' thing, call and write, letting them know you notice the effort.
Oh so NOW you all care about the Federalist Papers but blew them off as "Liberal" and not being "Law of The Land" when it comes to Federalist Papers # 78 defining the specific definitions of a Bill of Attainder as our Nation's founders intended. How…priceless!!!
Now lets see if any of you actually read this (Federalist # 39) and still talk of secession or taking up arms against the Constitutionally protected form of government currently in power elected by the Constitutionally protected electoral process by the will of the majority of American people. Talk your treason after reading this.
NUTN2SAY
Start pestering the RNC and Michael Steele to put forth Conservative candidates. If they are not nominated, we can't vote for them.
dotdotcom
Praise is due to you for your efforts. Thanks.
Are you suggesting that our elected officials are indebted to "loan sharks" and it is the "loan sharks" that essentially control our elected officials whom in turn have fear of the loan sharks that control the whole world If you take in consideration that America is "supposed" to be a superpower! You may be right! Then our problem is a lot bigger than we thought. Does this mean then we have lost our freedom to government loan sharks? I don't remember reading about loan sharks in the Constitution. Are to be forever slaves to these people that out elected officials fear? I guess the MSM fears the same people the government does too!
Don't you mean "we"start pestering the RNC. I have lost faith in the Republicans! They are complicit in this CRIME OF THE CENTURY too! There are some of us over at the 912 who think the road to America's remedy is to have an all out cleansing of government by voting all incumbents out no matter who the are and replacing them with all new blood conservatives!
… the time is RIPE for a third party!
There is a difference, McCain's parents were BOTH U.S. Citizens & he was born at Coco Solo Naval Air Station, Panama which does constitute him as a natural born U.S. citizen born on U.S. soil, U.S. military bases are considered to be U.S. soil, as well as, U.S. Navy ships at sea.
But, have you noticed those others like Newsmax and Worldnet Daily really only focus on the Birth Certificate issue and not Article 2 Section 1. There are some of us who have started to think the B.C. is a decoy to steer people away from Article 2 Section 1 which is more (in my opinion) damaging to the congress than the B.C. There are many problems with this situation which is being deliberately ignored by congress and the MSM but must be addressed!
That's what some people say. I like the idea of first throwing out all incumbents in 2010 and replacing with new conservatives and discussing a third party later!
That's a technicality that others bring up from time to time. Some say yes, some say no! I say this, I consider (although I'm not fond of him) McCain to meet Article 2 Section 1 muster and Obama not! But what is significant is Obama was on that Senate committee that approved McCain as qualified to be a presidential candidate. How ironic? But yet so typical of liberals….the unqualified determining who is determined to be qualified!
Lincoln wanted to close down the Federal Reserve bank…he knew it was , as did President Kennedy…this is probably the reason they were killed!
I have written many letters with that very question to Fox News. There fluff began after Obama's warning to them. I wonder what that warning was. I feel this subject is far reaching and more corrupt that we may ever know. They have set him up to take over and destroy us and yet no one is talking about that either. When they talk about him it is always fair and balanced? lol fair and balanced a cover up ,not to tell the truth. Not to ask the hard questions. It is a sham and it is being perpetrated on the American people keeping them in the dark hole of understand that Obama and his cronies have sold us. I for one will keep digging and will support any group that will find the truth.
Someone needs to take a Stand against this Bogus POTUS and the corrupt elite who assisted in overthrowing our Constitutional Republic!! How much more proof is needed? This is not about Political party, religion, color of skin – it's about them deliberately destroying America. This issue has been known since Obama announced he would run for POTUS – the DNC was informed that he was ineligible, but was ignored.
Welcome to "PROPAGANDA NATION" where the truth is controlled and the lies are over sold! When we take back America from these (in my opinion) corrupt bastards, we have much work to be done. Remember the 1st Amendment protects journalist from reporting the truth about government and facing reprisal for doing so! Not for making propaganda, lies and withholding the truth from the public! Any journalist caught passing deliberate misinformation to the public should be brought up on charges in my opinion!
Before the very eyes of about 300 million people, a "MURDER OF A NATION" is taking place by an illegal president where there is more than ample circumstantial evidence who is not what he sold the American people as himself to be! He say's he not muslim, but sure is worried about those muslims at Gitmo! He says he's a democrat, but sure acts more like a socialist in his policy making! He says he wants to help lower the costs of health care in this country but refuses to take two essential steps that will bring about lowered health care cost like getting malpractice lawsuits under control by having a mediation process first to filter the serious from the frivolous and attacking health care fraud and abuse! Do those two things first before anything else and people might take him a little more seriously! But where is the MSM on any of these things? The MSM is nowhere to be found! But they will sure tell you when someone gets a chunk bitten of their butt by a shark when they enter into the ocean!
There were a few in our Municipality, County & State that had one runners. The local papers are pathetic on releasing any News about local politics, let alone informing us about the wide spread Corruption that's taking place on a Nation level – not just in D.C. Another strange thing on the ballad, the single runners "ran" under democrat/republican (no separation on the party line or the political affiliation). No voter would know if that person running was a democrat or republican. I found that very strange. It was difficult to find out their party affiliation prior to the election, thankfully I was able to find out that some were backed by SEIU / Acorn….
Corruption, I know is at the Municipality & School level. WE HAVE it here!!
Why is it I know more about those so called "gate crashers" than I do about the illegal President of the U.S.! This man had better learn that if you want to be a President of the U.S., one had better make your whole entire life an open book! But again this is where the MSM make themselves accessories to this CRIME OF THE CENTURY. Every time some nitwit goes swimming or surfing out in the ocean and winds up getting bit on the butt by a shark….it's national news! But when it comes to the past of this illegal president and the truth about his origins…the MSM is silent and apparently aiding this guy!
I have renamed the MSM to Lame-Stream-Media, which has become a gossip column for the corrupt elite. I can't wait to see who the next successful applicant to corruption will be. They have not only betrayed the citizens, they have betrayed their Country. They are aiding and abetting in the destruction of our Nation. Their motives are clear – instead of attacking corruption, they attack those who expose the corruption. They have destroyed what journalism is about, severely lacking ethics of all proportions. The morals, values & principles we once looked to in obtaining Truth, are gone leaving our Nation at risk.
It's sad, especially when one thinks about the Future for our Children and Grand Children.
I strongly agree with you post!! It is a "Murder of a Nation" & Obama/Barry is illegally occupying the White House. Those supporting this act is at the least, guilty of “Fraud, Treason and Conspiracy”.
Thank You! Your response is well received because you are also right! But until theyaccount for themselves it is essential that the likes of Beck, Hannity and Levin are complicit also! I left out O'Rielly because we already know what kind of wussy sellout he turned out to be when it comes to Obama being illegal! But unilt the others I previously mentioned acknowledge the ARTICLE 2 SECTION 1 violation of the Constitution they too are to be considered MSM sellouts and anti-Americans! They talk a good game but they refuse to make that much needed touch down! I will give Andrew Breitbart some time to show his colors, he's just to new for me to say anything critical of him! But there no doubt about it, Washington D.C. is inhabited by a sick culture of anti-American politicians and anti-American journalist who are in much need of a new home on "DEVILS ISLAND"
NUTN2SAY
People with the power of money behind them for sure. Cannot attest to them being 'loan sharks', but most likely sharks of some sort. Since January when the bankers were taken in a room and told they could not leave until they agreed to what was a take over.
It seems that what I believed where, 'strong' captains of industry, are lying down to all manner of of new rules against their self interests.
Causes one to wonder just what persuasion is being used.
I'm sorry, I miss stated, sort of, it depends on how the base is obtained. Here is the legals:
* Anyone born inside the United States *
* Any Indian or Eskimo born in the United States, provided being a citizen of the U.S. does not impair the person's status as a citizen of the tribe
* Any one born outside the United States, both of whose parents are citizens of the U.S., as long as one parent has lived in the U.S.
* Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year and the other parent is a U.S. national
* Any one born in a U.S. possession, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year (This includes Embassies, Consulates, U.S. Navy ships at sea and some military instillations)
* Any one found in the U.S. under the age of five, whose parentage cannot be determined, as long as proof of non-citizenship is not provided by age 21
* Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is an alien and as long as the other parent is a citizen of the U.S. who lived in the U.S. for at least five years (with military and diplomatic service included in this time)
* A final, historical condition: a person born before 5/24/1934 of an alien father and a U.S. citizen mother who has lived in the U.S.
Indy, nice try. What you posted is from Title 8 Section 1401 which describes citizens at birth, but it does not define who is a natural born citizen (born in the US *AND* born to citizen parents – plural).
McCain was not born on US soil and that is what makes him not a natural born citizen. A natural born citizen attains his/her citizenship by the laws of nature and not of man. Even if McCain was born on US military base in the Canal Zone (some reports have him being born in Colon, Panama), this military base is under US jurisdiction by virtue of a human law. By the law of nature, that soil is Panamanian. Furthermore, Panama's constitution considers all persons born in the Canal Zone to have Panamanian citizenship at birth.
I agree, but not Jindal for President (or VP), for he is not a natural born citizen. Jindal for Governor, Senate, or Cabinet would be fine and Constitutional.
Hey Dot. Thrilled to see your post over here. You are doing great work!
Lame Stream Media. LOL. That is very good! Thanks CharlieChatBox.
title 8 section 1403.
(a) Any person born in the Canal Zone on or after February 26, 1904, and whether before or after the effective date of this chapter, whose father or mother or both at the time of the birth of such person was or is a citizen of the United States, is declared to be a citizen of the United States.
(b) Any person born in the Republic of Panama on or after February 26, 1904, and whether before or after the effective date of this chapter, whose father or mother or both at the time of the birth of such person was or is a citizen of the United States employed by the Government of the United States or by the Panama Railroad Company, or its successor in title, is declared to be a citizen of the United States.
I was only using the "loan shark" terminology per se trying to describe the people that the politicians appear indebted too, somebody who might have an unpleasant attitude if they are not properly repaid what's owed. By the way the politicians completely ignore the will of the people and move forward with their own agenda does suggest that there is some sort of unseen controlling force driving them and people that they are indebted to seems to be a logical conclusion!
You need to understand that only one place in the Constitution is the term NATURAL BORN CITIZEN used which is ARTICLE 2 SECTION 1for the qualifications to be a U.S. president. All other citations in the Constitution and the Amendments only make reference to "citizen" or "citizenship" that is a distinction often misunderstood. The purpose being one's allegiance to his country and in particular a president who as commander in chief of America's military must be solely devoted to America. Imagine a president who is from another country and someday America becomes at war with that country, the president is going to have a personal struggle and a conflict of interest which will prevent him from being an effective commander in chief. If you look at Obama, here is a president who most certainly as a commander in chief of America's military seems to be having a conflict of interest with the campaigns in the muslim Middle East.
More of the same, Indy. These are all declarations of who is a "citizen" of the US, not a "natural born citizen". McCain is a citizen, but he is not a natural born citizen. Obama is also a citizen, but not a natural born citizen.
McCain was a dual citizen at birth: US and Panamanian. He was a US citizen by being born to US citizen parents and by federal statute. He was a Panamanian citizen per the Panamanian constitution, for having been born on their soil. Just as any child born in the US of foreign parents is a US citizen (and also a citizen of the parents' home country), so is any child born in Panama of foreign parents a Panamanian citizen at birth and a citizen of the parents' home country.
I understand, I was just pointing out that there is a difference in the two cases. With Sen. McCain, both parents are U.S. natural born citizens, McCain was given that right because of his birth place AND his parents, as well as legal precedence had been set prior to McCain running for office. With Obama, there is a great deal of questions, there has not been a ruling on this because it had not come into play since Zachary Taylor & Pres. Taylor fell under fell under Article 2 "Grandfather Prevision" because he was born in 1784, before the formation of the United States. Too many questions abound with Obama's birth, a lot by his own making, of his birth location, his mothers length of stay outside of the U.S. prior to his birth & he has been adding fuel to the fire by refusing anyone to see documentation, what he "wrote" in his biography, etc. Of course he picks the State with the vaguest birth recording system, unless you are a native Hawaiian, in the country to claim birth. Honestly, I think the guy has been lying so long that even he doesn't know the truth anymore.
A natural born citizen would never declare himself to be a "Citizen of the World".
Here is my point, precedence had been set prior to Sen. McCain. The precedence had been set in 1964 when Barry Goldwater ran for President. He was born in the Arizona Territory, the Supreme Court had ruled that he was eligible & this ruling was applied to Sen. McCain because the Panama Canal Zone was a U.S. Territory at the time of his birth. Obama on the other hand, there was no precedence & the Supreme Court has been dodging the matter.
To be a natural born citizen, you need 3 things: A US citizen father, a US citizen mother, and birth on US soil. 1+1+1=3. McCain may get a half point for being born in a US military facility, but that is still not enough (1+1+0.5=2.5). He is closer to being a natural born citizen than Obama (1+1=2) but neither is a natural born citizen. At birth, McCain had a Panamanian foreign claim, and at birth Obama had a British/Kenyan foreign claim. Our Founding Fathers did not want presidents with any foreign entanglements.
Furthermore, being a natural born citizen was not enough for our Founding Fathers. They understood that foreign influence comes not only from birthplace and birth parents, but it also comes from having lived in a foreign country. Hence they added the 14-residency requirement.
I'm trying to do this off a PDA, I know I already posted this but I'm not sure where it is on this goofy layout anyway…Here is my point, precedence had been set prior to Sen. McCain. The precedence had been set in 1964 when Barry Goldwater ran for President. He was born in the Arizona Territory, the Supreme Court had ruled that he was eligible & this ruling was applied to Sen. McCain because the Panama Canal Zone was a U.S. Territory at the time of his birth. Obama on the other hand, there was no precedence & the Supreme Court has been dodging the matter.
-Appoligies for the repeat.
I understand your point but you are comparing apples to oranges. The Arizona Territory became US territory at the end of the Mexican-American War. Mexico lost all sovereignty to that land in 1848. The Canal Zone was US territory by virtue of a treaty and a lease (human laws, not laws of nature). Panama had always claimed sovereignty to the land of the Canal Zone. And as I mentioned earlier, their constitution considered all persons born in the Canal Zone to be Panamanian citizens at birth. I doubt that Mexico considered Goldwater to be a Mexican citizen at birth. McCain lost his Panamanian citizenship at age 18, but it is his status at birth that matters.
But we do agree that Obama is a dual citizen (due to his non-US citizen father) and not a natural born citizen and not eligible to be President, right?
Not a problem. I understand. I replied to your comment a little higher on the thread.
Right or wrong, that was the ruling that was applied as to Sen. McCain's citizenship. I didn't make the ruling, I am repeating the citations for their decision in making the ruling, it also didn't hurt that he was a Navy Captain, a POW and the son & grandson of Navy Admirals. Personally, as a former sailor, I have no problem with any child born to U.S. military personal & a U.S. citizen spouse, born overseas, being granted natural born citizenship. Why should the child be anything less because his parent(s) chose to serve & protect this country & where stationed/deployed on active military duty outside the U.S.?
I found some of the what they were referring some of it pertains to the First Congress 2nd Session in 1790 but I have to get some sleep, it's after 3am & I worked all day. I'll have to do some digging in the books.
From what I can see, all the issue's you raise as well and good intended as they are, are moot points. What I am saying has nothing to do with "where" either Obama or McCain were born. What I am saying is that because of Barack Obama's father, Obama fails to qualify to be a president under Article 2 Section 1 of the U.S. Constitution. The definition of NATURAL BORN CITIZEN is being born in the U.S. and to be child of a mother and father whom both are U.S. citizens. Barack Obama's father was never a U.S. citizen.
I don't know if you have ever heard me say this, but until Obama came along I thought Bill Clinton was the most arrogant and worst president. Heck, with this clown in office I'm starting to like Clinton now. Obama makes me want to puke and I'm going to need a new TV someday because I swear, this guy's face is on TV so much more than any president since television, I'm bound to someday get my 44 mag and shoot out the TV!
NUTN2SAY
Controlling force or at least difficult to resist. Indebted to or frightened of?
It is national institutionalized systemic corruption…
Umm… Syntax_game….
Go suck a lemon!
Let's assume the politicians are frightened of those they are indebted too. Once we as in WE the PEOPLE evict this illegal president from the White House and take back America by invoking the JEFFERSON PRINCIPLE and sending all the no good useless politicians to Devils Island, i want to ask …..who should we "waterboard" first to find out who these people are that the politicians are indebted too and frightened of?
NUTN2
Very good question.
Do you go after the weakest first so you get the information faster?
or
Do you go after the most resistant first so you can interrogate them all?
How about I let you have the honor of making that decision. To me though and if that were the case having a weaker and a more resistant, I would just make it a double in separate rooms!
Wait a minute! Let's make it a triple. Let's throw in Joe Biden just for entertainment!
I agree completely, Obama shouldn't be President for under the criteria set forth in Article 2 Sec. 1, among several other reasons. What I was trying to show, because it was brought up, the reasoning given over how Sen. McCain was approved but it has gotten carried away. Like I said in reference to Obama, there are too many unanswered questions that revolve around his true origins & citizenship and like everything else with the the 2008 election everybody who has any authority over the matter, has been avoiding any questions regarding this. All you get is the same BS that the Climate Change people have been giving, "The science is settled."
By ruling, do you mean that Senate resolution? Nope, only the US Supreme Court has the power to interpret the Constitution (more on this below). I did some research and I am not finding any Supreme Court resolution stating that Goldwater was a natural born citizen.
There have been four Supreme Court cases where the topic of natural born citizen has appeared. In the 1874 case of Minor v. Happersett, they defined a natural born citizen as a person born in the country to citizen parents. In 1939 in the Elg v. Perkins case, they declared Ms. Elg to be a natural born citizen (she was born in NY to naturalized citizens).
Ok, after talking to a retired Federal Judge & a neighbor who is an attorney that deals with citizenship, as well as digging through a ton of papers & law books, they both agreed on two things 1) "natural born" needs to be better defined & 2) how they would argue it for cases like Sen. McCain:
Act of Mar. 26, 1790, ch. 3, 1 Stat. 104. (Naturalization Act of 1790)
"And the children of citizens of the United States, that mayibe born beyond sea, or out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born citizens: Provided, That the right of citizenship shall not descend to persons whose fathers have never been resident in the United States: Provided also, That no person heretofore proscribed by any state, shall be admitted a citizen as aforesaid, except by an act of the legislature of the state in which such person was proscribed,"
APPROVED, March 26, 1790.
Naturalization Act of 1795 (repeal of the Naturalization Act of 1790)
Foreign-born children of American parents "shall be considered as citizens of the United States."
Though not mentioned, the word "natural" is "assumed" in the in the 1795 Act and use of reference to the 14th Amendment addressing only 2 types of citizenship "born citizens" & "naturalized citizen" , is used to support this because the word "natural" was also not included.
Finally, as stated before, 8 U.S.C. § 1403 References to children born in the Panama Canal Zone as automatic citizens along as their parents are U.S. citizens at the time of their birth.
The Supreme Court case that is most often referenced to support this is Scott v. Sanford though the slavery parts were rendered obsolete by the 14th Amendment.
So to summarize, any child given U.S. citizenship automatically, by birth, is assumed "natural" born because the procedures of naturalization do not apply.
Once again, Article 2 Section 1 is defined as being born in the U.S. to a mother and father who are both citizens of the U.S.! To change that requires an amendment to the U.S. Constitution of an interpretation by the SCOTUS none of which has ever happened! Let's cut to the chase here. Why don't you just tell all of us if you had the power to do so…what would your definition of Article 2 Section 1, Natural Born Citizen be! I'm starting to get the impression that you are not happy with the definition of being born in the U.S. to parents who both are U.S. citizens.
NUTN2
Ok, I will be the brave one. I may be small, but I have broad enough shoulders to take on the criticism that will be heaped on me. I may not stick to just water-boarding, as I have an inventive mind, no marks will show.
NUTN2SAY
Joe? He is too easy. Just threaten to shave his head.
Why do you have a pen name? Are you a member of congress, Senate, Hillary Clinton?
Huh? What about the 30,000 rule, why have an IRS and a Central Bank (Federal Reserve) strange how the constitution says nothing but gold and silver shall our currency be backed by and yet we have a bank that loans our money back to us at interest? Strange how the constitution guarantees a Republican form of government and yet the word democracy is not mentioned once in the US Constitution neither is "seperation of church and state" as far as socialism is concerned surprise we've been socialists since 1913! Put that in your pipe and smoke it!
The 1795 Act corrected the mistake of using the term natural born citizen in the 1790 Act. The words "natural born" were deliberately left out in the 1795 Act.
Not sure I understand your point about the 14th amendment, which declares those born or naturalized in the US to be citizens. This amendment does not mention nor does it affect the term natural born citizen.
Title 8 Section 1403 makes McCain a US citizen but it does not make him a natural born citizen. Nor can it deny Panama the right to declare those born in the Panama Canal Zone to be Panamanian citizens at birth.
Please, can I waterboard Joe just for the fun of it? For Joe I'll use warm water I promise!
How come he doesn't think that you are a retired federal judge and I am a Constitutional law student?
NUTN2SAY
I don't know, err, well alright, but we still shave his head after.
Sorry, I had a goofy work schedule. I'm not arguing with you two & I understand your position & I am ok with it, I was just pointing out that these were the arguments used, as explained to me, to support Sen. McCain but these don't apply to Obama. I do see a need to better define the term "natural" to eliminate any further debate that will come in the future.
Shhhhh! : )
It can be argued that McCain is closer to being a natural born citizen than Obama, but neither is a natural born citizen. And we can certainly agree that McCain is a patriot and Obama is not.
It is because McCain is not a natural born citizen, that the Republicans could not call Obama out on that issue. That Senate resolution was designed to remove the natural born citizen issue from the table. Of the handful of Senators who signed it, only one was a Republican, and one of the Democrats was Obama (hmmm).
Bobby Jindal, a rising star in the Republican Party, is also not a natural born citizen. Although born in Louisiana, his parents were not yet citizens at the time of his birth. I believe this is one big reason the Republicans remain silent on this issue.
Unanswered questions? How about questions that the main stream media is not even asking? Here is the one question, that if asked and answered, would result in Obama's removal from office:
How can the status at birth of a US natural born citizen be "governed" by the laws of Great Britain?
Check my reply to you from 3 days ago, where I provide the background for this question, as well as the answer. I hereby challenge bigjournalism.com to at least ask this legitimate question of Constitutional law. It is a question that can be asked without showing bias.
Why ssso sssocialist?
I'm sorry Missy, did I use big words? Just watch The Dark Knight again while us adults talk OK? Here, have a cookie.
New media had gone to their heads…BIG TIME!
That's the strange thing about the disease of conceit, it makes everybody else sick except for the person who has it.
The Greatest Story Never Told, or the Greatest Story Told by Very Few. When will we demand truth in journalism??? We demand truth in everything else supposedly, like truth in advertising, etc. How about just plain journalism? Hold the government’s feet to the fire! The MSM is a propaganda machine now, totally owned by the government, we have become the USSR while we slept. . The joke is doesn't the government see that by keeping this story out of the MSM it actually is validating this story even more because of course an illegal President would seek to control what information gets out to the people. There is no question in my mind of Obama's ineligibility; he is a dual citizen – not a natural born citizen as Article II demands as a qualification. The only dual citizens allowed entre into the Presidency were the Founding Presidents given exception through the grandfather clause in Article II. Obama was not born at the time of the writing of the Constitution and is ineligible, period. Time is short, shout from the roof tops the truth if necessary: Our Constitution is being usurped!!!! Get the pitchforks out, big brother is here.