[...]here are some links to sites that we link to because we think they are worth visiting[...]……

If it was a plebiscite and it was conducted freely and fairly by those who lived there (rather than, say, bussed in voters from St. Petersburg), why not?

"This is the key truth. Only people whose country has not, happily, suffered colonial domination would seek to ignore or obfuscate this."

Strange. The peoples of the Indian subcontinent did, and yet they STILL allowed that to happen when Pakistan emerged during partition in 1947. Methinks you need to study history.

" The English should do the honourable thing and withdraw from Ireland"

If the returns from the North one year say "Yeh, we want to go join with the Republic now", than yes. But until then, what right does the British government have to disregard the rights and voice of their own citizens? About the same as if an irish province were to unilaterally annex itself back to Britain against the popular vote in that province (namely: NONE).

"and I have no doubt that if given the opportunity in a referendum they would vote overwhelmingly to do so."

Sorry to say this, but the past eighty years has handily disproved that.

" But, as with the Lisbon Treaty, they will never have such an opportunity."

Perhaps, perhaps not. But the bottom line is that you need to calm down and actually realize that this was not conducted in a vacuum. The same rules that governed the Irish partition government what happened on the Adriatic Coast and in Silesia at the time, and the eevvvilll British did not write those rules. The bottom line is that the Northern Irish voted for union, and as per the terms of the agreement, they were granted their wish, just as the Irish heartland voted for independence and gained it. This was not an isolated case, so don't act like it was. The Northern Irish have consistently voted for continued union, so what right do we have to disregard that?

If the Republicanists win a majority, I will have no issue with them being allowed to join the Republic, for the same reason I respect the right of the Northern Irish to remain with Britain now: what justification is there to disregard the democratic will of the people?

Ponder that for a second, and image if the election had gone the other way, in some bizarre alternate universe. Would you have remained equally open to such a "winner takes all" approach?

Agreed. And I WASN'T contesting THAT.

"They got out of the 26 counties bcos public opinion in GB, (including George V's profound disquiet concerning the treatment of his Irish subjects), and abroad, esp. the US, wouldn't have tolerated the increased level of savagery that would have been necessary to supress the insurrection."

Agreed.

"The 6 counties were hived away bcos they constituted a large enough area with a built-in Unionist majority to furnish a viable statelet. Its existence and extent were dictated purely by sectarian headcounting."

A. And HOW does this contest my point that the plebiscite was democratic and ultimately conducted on the same basis with which the Irish gained independence in the South?

B. Compared to most elections, even in the US, the Irish plebiscite was remarkably nonsectarian. In the South, the overwhelming majority- including Protestants and Anglo-Irish- favored independence. In the North, an overwhelming majority- including most Catholics, I must add- favored continued Union.

"These 6 counties never before constituted a differentiated area or region of the country for any administrative, political or governmental purpose. Ireland up to 1922 was always considered as a single unit, counties were merely local administrative areas while the 4 provinces were merely historical entities with no governmental apparatus at all. BTW the six counties in question are part of Ulster but three other Ulster counties – Tír Chonaill, Muineachán and An Cabhán – are under Irish rule."

Agreed, but you ARE MISSING THE POINT. The messy nature of "Self-determination" means that the vote is broken down not by strictly rational methods, but by the vote. The Northern provinces were never a separate unit prior to the plebiscite, but they were made so by the Democratic vote of their inhabitants, much like Schleswig-Holstein was partitioned between Denmark and Germany after WWII, or India and Pakistan partitioned themselves from the Raj. It isn't neat, and the very nature of the vote means it rarely if ever WILL fall neatly along administrative lines. The dividing fact was that the people of those provinces voted for Union, and their neighbors didn't. Take it as it is, but that was how it went. Would you have preferred if the British were allowed to keep the parts of Ulster that voted for independence for the sake of keeping things within administrative/provincial boundaries? Didn't think so.

"In other words the will of the Irish people (80% in favour of independence in a free and fair election) concerning the future of their country was repudiated by 20% of the population backed by the armed might of the world Superpower at the time."

No it wasn't, as shown by the fact that the British allowed those regions that had voted for independence to leave. The North voted for continued union. What allows one side to invalidate their democratic desire for it, particularly given the fact that it was hinged upon the same justification upon which the rest of Ireland gained independence?

The bottom line is that the majority of the Irish voted for independence, while the majority of the North Irish voted for Union. And both the British government and the mainstream of the Irish government (including Collins) accepted both results. Are you now saying that if the vote had been the other way around, the dissidents should have been forcefully kept within the British Empire?

" The sectarian allegiance of those in the 6 counties who wish to perpetuate this injustice is irrelevant."

So, when the vote goes YOUR way, it is legitimate, but when the vote goes the OTHER way, it is an "injustice?" That is what we call a "double standard."

" ALL the people of Ireland are entitled to a say in how ALL their country is governed."

Had the Irish plebiscite been conducted like a normal election, that would have been the case. But this was not a normal election. This was a plebiscite, conducted using the methods concurrently in use in Silesia and Dalmatia, where the vote of the Dublin busboys only counted for their precinct, and the votes Ulster pub association likewise remained within their precinct. That was how it was conducted in Silesia 1920, in 1945 Schleswig, and in 1947 Indian Subcontinent. Does Ireland deserve a separate rule?

" Everyone of whatever political or religious persuasion is entitled to their say but no self-annointed minority is entitled to sunder the country against the will of four fifths of their fellow citizens."

Sorry, that is how a Plebiscite GOES. Welcome to politics. And I say this knowing all too well that a good portion of California and the rest of the American Southwest could one day voluntarily annex itself to Mexico on that basis. I wouldn't like it, but I would hardly be up in arms trying to prevent it.

The 6 counties were hived away bcos they constituted a large enough area with a built-in Unionist majority to furnish a viable statelet. Its existence and extent were dictated purely by sectarian headcounting. These 6 counties never before constituted a differentiated area or region of the country for any administrative, political or governmental purpose. Ireland up to 1922 was always considered as a single unit, counties were merely local administrative areas while the 4 provinces were merely historical entities with no governmental apparatus at all. BTW the six counties in question are part of Ulster but three other Ulster counties – Tír Chonaill, Muineachán and An Cabhán – are under Irish rule.

In other words the will of the Irish people (80% in favour of independence in a free and fair election) concerning the future of their country was repudiated by 20% of the population backed by the armed might of the world Superpower at the time. The sectarian allegiance of those in the 6 counties who wish to perpetuate this injustice is irrelevant. ALL the people of Ireland are entitled to a say in how ALL their country is governed. Everyone of whatever political or religious persuasion is entitled to their say but no self-annointed minority is entitled to sunder the country against the will of four fifths of their fellow citizens. That's straightforward democracy and would be clearly seen as such if, say, a Russian minority in Latvia/Ukraine etc. backed by the might of Russia transferred something like a quarter of their country's landmass to Moscow's suzerainty. This is the key truth. Only people whose country has not, happily, suffered colonial domination would seek to ignore or obfuscate this. The English should do the honourable thing and withdraw from Ireland and I have no doubt that if given the opportunity in a referendum they would vote overwhelmingly to do so. But, as with the Lisbon Treaty, they will never have such an opportunity.