Sunday Open Thread: Irish Edition
by PubliusToday, in 1922, the Irish Free State was born. (Full independence would come in 1937.)

Today, in 1922, the Irish Free State was born. (Full independence would come in 1937.)

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Tags: Eamon DeValera, Ireland, Irish Free State, Michael Collins
Posted Dec 6th 2009 at 5:42 am in Open Threads |
4169474 Commentshttp://biggovernment.com/publius/2009/12/06/sunday-open-thread-fighting-irish-edition/Sunday+Open+Thread%3A+Irish+Edition2009-12-06+12%3A42%3A59Publius
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I am calling to all of you freedom-loving Americans to come once again to Washington D.C. to gather at upper Senate Park, across from the Capitol on Saturday, at 12 o’clock noon. We must come by the thousands. Speaker Pelosi will stop at nothing to fulfill her...





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Happy Anniversary to the Irish.
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I'm half Scotsman and half Irish.
My dilemma? I don't know which half I should be most ashamed of.
(LOL) Happy anniversary, you Irish bastards you!
I'm 38% Irish, 25 % welsh, 18% Scotsman, ?% Original American, and parts unknown. I'm proud I had nothing to do with it all
I am 100% Irish. I am extremely proud to be Irish. Many Irish men and women died fighting for our freedom. Those who make fun of those heroes who gave all for their ideals, are not fit to even consider commenting on these boards. My advice is to grow up, study your history, and make fun of something puny and ridiculous – such as yourselves – instead of indulging your egos by mocking others. Éamonn, Dublin, Ireland.
I attribute my still having a spine when few still do to whatever percentage of Irish heritage I have… WE NEED MORE IRISH !!
It is highly likely that the Irish and other red-haired people(s) are descendants from the Israelite tribe of Dan. The Stone of Destiny, also called Jacob's Pillow Stone is kept under The Queen's Throne, on a shelf in full view.
Eeamonn,
Uhh, nobody here was making fun of anybody, whether they be Irish, or just plain stupid. You sure came out of left field, mate……………
Actually, I was poking fun at myself. I have a whole routine I do about the Irish (self-defecating humor).
As for growing up, hmmm……
Kettle? Pot here. You're black.
Ya caint fix stoopid…..
I want to revist my verbiage. Instead of the word "fun", I should probably have written "ignorantly insulting". My mistake. BTW, I always notice that whenever I respond to what are obviously uncalled for remarks on a comment page, the ones who comment back to me in disparaging tones are also the very ones who shout that I am easily offended. Now THAT'S funny. Dia dhibh! Éamonn, Dublin, Ireland.
Satire and Sarcasm are hard soooooo…….hard to use here. I'm sure your Scottish side already knew that.
Ok, ALLAH-U AKBAR!
There, that make you feel better?
I tend to agree, more Irish, but we could do with less Kennedy's in politics…………
No, not really. Muhammed was a paedophile, so I don't take much notice of his rants.
I don't consider myself anything but AMERICAN……….. When people ask me my nationality I say American.
Yes,my ancestors were from the other side of the pond, but not me or my parents.
Irish are fine…Scotch-Irish – Beware!
http://www.cafepress.com/rightwingstuff
I believe it was Oscar Wilde (who was Irish, btw) once observed that "Good sarcasm is wasted on children." He neglected to include liberals, the overly religious, and evidently, some of his latter day countrymen…
(and my great grandfather's name was Osbourne…)
why are you so proud of your irish DNA, you didnt have anything to do with it, we real Americans take pride in something we actually did
To tell you the truth, all you good Irish Catholic boy's shouldn't even be here this morning. You should be sitting in the front pew, at Mass. With the Parish Priest, the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, donchaknow……..
LOL — My uncle (my favorite one) told me, "Your daddy's side of the family is Irish, which automatically makes you stupid. Add that to your mama's side, which is Scots, who are known to be crazy. Now what kind of chances do YOU have in this life?"
Then, without waiting for an answer, "You ain't got a snowball's chance in hell, them's your chances. Now, are you gonna take me to get more beer or what?"
OK, let's have some sarcasm! George Washington was a bum. Cool or what? Éamonn.
This is true. My Scottish side is pretty smart (but kinda crazy, too), LOL.
How well I know. If they could, I could've gotten some help a while back. I'm actually LMAO this morning, it's a great day in the USA.
Thanks for the reply.
Let's hope for Scottish independence soon…
Happy Birthday Ireland! Erin Go Braugh!
Sincerely,
A Mick (Fourth generation Irish-American)
I might have missed something signifigant. Why are you laughing, what is so great about today (other than the sun is shining and it is beautiful). Did Nancy Pelosi and her Komrades commit hari kari overnight? Did Obunger resign? Did he show up with a forged Certificate of Live Birth? Or are you just laughing at your misguided countryman who went off on a tangent…………..?
So. You have a split personality disorder?
Half of you likes good beer, the other half likes good whiskey, and the whole of you probably lusts after busty lasses…………..
Cool!
Teddy Kennedy was a drunken murderer, and a poor swimmer to boot………
Sarcasm must by nature have a hint of truth, such as a "Wooden Teeth" remark. Which is not true, but has been perpetrated through American Folklore, hope that helps.
Appreciate your report, i love the emerald isle! i understand the pride in your country, as i have in mine, its racial pride that bothers me, in that no one has anything to do with what race they are.
Right on about Teddy! And Obama is a born liar – more than "a hint of truth" in that one! Whither America with this bum at the helm? All together now: "Allahu Akbar"!!!
Nah, you missed nothing.
I should've been more explicit. I've had such a good morning, even an unnecessary taking of offense, such as Eamonn's, doesn't affect me.
My family is beautiful; they love me in spite of who and what I am. That's the basis of feeling good for me, this AM. I wish some of the other salubrious possibilities you mentioned were true.
Self-defecating? Did you mean self-deprecating? I hope…….
Guilty as charged, your honor.
(Luckily enough, I stopped drinking decades ago, but I never stopped chasing the hoochie mamas. My girlfriend says I'm going to the vet if I exhibit any bad behavior, though, so I'm in a perpetual state of innocence these days. Thanks for the reply. I'm still LMAO over here.)
As the drunken, PCP-crazed Rodney King (puke) said, "Why can't we all just get along?"
LOL – what a crappy mistake for me to make. I was wondering if anyone would catch that.
Yes, you're absolutely right, of course. Thanks for replying and HAPPY SUNDAY!
I love the damned Irish, ok?
Now you have me wondering whether you did it intentionally. All in good fun regardless. Back at you.
What side were the Irish scum on during WWII?
Sorry — It was 100% intentional. There's a long story behind it (a boring one). Anyhow, a few years back, I googled the term, after someone (a damned lawyer, no less) used it, thinking it was correct and legitimate. I think (not sure) I discovered that someone had started a big woopty-doo with it, and it had spread like wildfire. Anyway, I think the self-defecating thing is hilarious, since defecating and deprecating are near homophones with riotously different meanings.
Well, I did until this morning, LMAO.
This date is totally ignored here in Ireland. It is NOT our Fourth of July. It is certainly not our "birthday"! The Gaelic race has been in Ireland for two thousand five hundred years, 1922 was just another bump in the road.
The Easter Rising (1916) and the War of Independence (1918 -21) were about the establishment of a 32-county Irish Republic. Nobody wanted the partitionist solution. It was forced on the Irish nation by the overwhelming might of England. A Civil War – known in Irish as Cogadh na gCarad or The War of the Friends – was fought between two wings of Republicanism as a result of the establishment of Saorstát Éireann (The Irish Free State).
The six north eastern counties – Aontroim, An Dún, Ard Mhacha, Fear Manach, Tír Eoghain and Doire – are still occupied by the British. The Irish Republic has still to be established. Partition was, of course, supported, as a last resort to maintain some sort of residual Anglo-Protestant hegemony, by the Unionists – 20% of the population and thoroughly connived at by the London regime. Democracy for me but not for thee. Thanks all the same for the nod. It's taken in the spirit offered.
Tiocfaidh ár lá. Éire go brách!
I know not nearly enough of Ireland's history, but I know enough to say it's ofen been a tragic one.
Bless the old sod, I say. Maybe another day, another way, things will come around as best they can.
The Right Side is 25% Irish but I am a full honorary Irishman. I was born on March 17th……err…… ummmm… the year is hard to remember. Just checked drivers license…. Oh My ! 1947… Top o' the day to ya Irish people….
Dia daoibh!
Rasmussen just came out with an interesting poll featuring Paul Krugman and others. Most people don't know who Krugman is, and I really hate that. I cannot stand that man.
Interestingly in the same poll they included one of my favorite Repubs, Alice Cooper .
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/po...
Has anyone chanced upon the theory that the Salahi gate crashing was staged in order to give Hussein a pretext for purging the Secret Service and filling its ranks with SIEU stooges and or Black Panther Muslim goons? It's hard to believe that one or more of the nefarious , Bond- villain-esque characters in this administration didn't have a hand in this matter, for nefarious, Bond-villain-esque reasons.
Two photoshops that try to illustrate the ingenious military strategy derived by the brilliant (Nobel Peace Prize-brilliant) Commander in Chief.
This Sorta Surge and
Taliban Headquarters
Comments are always welcome…
Thank you Mr. Flynn for the generous tip of the hat to the Irish. The Irish took to Democracy like fish to water, both in Ireland and the United States. The Germans needed to be pushed and the Russians still still are seduced by authoritarian strongmen. Americans of all ethnicities need to do whatever we can for the brave Navy Seals who captured terrorist scumbag Ahmed Hashim Abed, perpetrator of the atrocities on Blackwater Operators at Fallujah. It just so happens that 2 of the 3 carry Irish surnames (Matthew McCabe, Julio Huertas, Jonathan Keefe). We need to let the governing class know we will not accept their turning these brave men into scapegoats.
I'm not even Irish and I agree with you!
I just see the entire thing as a publicity stunt, and to seed a new program for the Imelt Network.
My, OH, MY! Mister David, Sor! British Arsehole, I presume?
Touche, my friend. And God Bless America!
Thank you. We'd be delighted to have you here!
Sorry if I upset you. I was just having a little fun myself ……………. Here in Ireland, we call it a "wind up". It seems to have worked!
Liberty666, I was born in Ireland. I LIVE in Ireland. My sole connection with the United States is that I have been there five times on holidays and on business. I love the United States. I consider/know that if it were not for the United States we would ALL by now be facing Mecca five times daily. But, I am still entitled to be proud of MY country, my friend. Éamonn.
Gimme time… I'll be there. I have a bit of every heritage you can think of BUT Irish, but with my (formerly) red hair and facial features, I get a lot of good wishes from folks on St Patrick's day.
No way was I upset — Thank you ever so much for replying.
I must admit, though, that today was such a good day, it seemed nothing much could upset me. I have a little one in the house, granddaughter, 3 1/2, and she keeps me on my toes and my attitude well-adjusted.
My mother-in-law flew to Ireland about 15 years ago. (When she got back, she had to get her broom overhauled.) At any rate, she took more than a thousand photos, enough to convince me there is no more beautiful country on Earth.
Ireland has had so much tragedy in its long and rich history. On the positive side, though, your economic growth has been more robust than our own in the last decade (if our media can be believed).
Thanks again for responding. Take care of you and the ones you love. I hope your Christmas season is rare in its warmth and gladness.
God Bless Irish Whiskey!
Hooray to Powers for everyday drinking, and Middleton for those special occasions, and Jamesons for cleaning carburators…
God I love a good Irish Whiskey!
And God Bless Guinness Too!!!! My favorite beer!
Yum yum!
Welcome to the no-hyphen zone.
Lovely comments – and thoughful. My advice? Come for a holiday if you wish, but I'd say it's very difficult to beat California. We all wish we were over there sometimes! God Bless America.
Thanks to you also. I enjoyed it! Thanks also for your nice comments. As for our economy, I'm sorry to have to report that we are now well on the way to being banjaxed. Our idiot politicians wasted all the money and now we are nearly broke. We have the annual budget this week and it is going to be the most stringent ever – lots of very nasty cutbacks. However, we'll pull through – we always have! God Bless America, saviour of the free world. BTW, email address is gavin.pi@gmail.com You are obviously one of the good ones: we should exchange Christmas pleasantries! All the very best to you and yours.
I hope to visit your country some day…
Mr. Huero-
I'm so glad you raised this issue. The Irish are always on the front-lines of battles. It may not be well planed, but we are always there. My own families' experience on this stretches over centuries, a great many examples of which didn't work out well.
I resided in Ireland for a little short of two years before I returned to America in 2002. The time there was a blast, except in retrospect I drank a little frequently, and a particular issue was coincidentally gnawing. Today I can only wish I had possessed something near the level of maturity I think to enjoy in the meantime. During the stay I was a grossly immature young man–not to say it was ever mentioned to me during it, except admittedly I can remember nothing but a single day in which I was sober: I remember as a young man of nineteen years I had been crying on the sidewalk because the pubs all were closed for this or that holiday and everything at home was already consumed. The alcoholic tendencies have all but disappeared in California but I wish I had spent my days in Ireland a tad more wisely and carved a niche for myself. Lately the wanderlust has taken hold again; and after ten years I have recurring dreams (almost nightmarish in tone) of returning except I doubt I ever will. Besides the future and utter collapse of California, why leave it? I was considering Mexico, even. But a place in my heart is always there for Ireland. The women are gorgeous and feisty as anything! Gar-jus! And I miss Podge and Rodge. The lads!
They were neutral. The government and a good portion of the populace was generally pro-Axis, but very little came of it, and indeed many Irishment (and not merely from the North) fought and died alongside the Western Allies.
You were saying?
Sorry, but I notice one MASSIVE problem, and I am honor-bound to mention it.
SImply put, the British never DEMANDED that the Northern Irish areas remain with the UK. They simply CHOOSE to do so, and have CONTINUED to do so for nearly a century, on the basis of self-determination. You know, the basis that the Independentists claimed independence from the crown in the FIRST place?
And I notice you forget to notice that a good majority of not merely the Northern Irish, but the Northern Irish CATHOLICS, who, if anything, probably would be the MOST eager to escape the "Anglo-Protestant hegenmony" you cite!
While I do not deny that Irish history has been tragic, that hardly warrents the stripping of self-determination from the Northern Irish.
If the Irish Free State included Northern Ireland you would of had decades of low intensity of conflict with the Republicans playing the part of the English and the Ulsters being the IRA.
Everyone knows what kleptocratic, genocidal scum the Brits were. EIREANN GO BRATH!
Scotch whiskey + Irish whiskey = Napalm – guaranteed hangover!
The Brits DEMANDED that the whole of Ireland remain subjugated, that's why a War of Independence was needed in the first place bcos they backed up their DEMAND with military might! They got out of the 26 counties bcos public opinion in GB, (including George V's profound disquiet concerning the treatment of his Irish subjects), and abroad, esp. the US, wouldn't have tolerated the increased level of savagery that would have been necessary to supress the insurrection.
The 6 counties were hived away bcos they constituted a large enough area with a built-in Unionist majority to furnish a viable statelet. Its existence and extent were dictated purely by sectarian headcounting. These 6 counties never before constituted a differentiated area or region of the country for any administrative, political or governmental purpose. Ireland up to 1922 was always considered as a single unit, counties were merely local administrative areas while the 4 provinces were merely historical entities with no governmental apparatus at all. BTW the six counties in question are part of Ulster but three other Ulster counties – Tír Chonaill, Muineachán and An Cabhán – are under Irish rule.
In other words the will of the Irish people (80% in favour of independence in a free and fair election) concerning the future of their country was repudiated by 20% of the population backed by the armed might of the world Superpower at the time. The sectarian allegiance of those in the 6 counties who wish to perpetuate this injustice is irrelevant. ALL the people of Ireland are entitled to a say in how ALL their country is governed. Everyone of whatever political or religious persuasion is entitled to their say but no self-annointed minority is entitled to sunder the country against the will of four fifths of their fellow citizens. That's straightforward democracy and would be clearly seen as such if, say, a Russian minority in Latvia/Ukraine etc. backed by the might of Russia transferred something like a quarter of their country's landmass to Moscow's suzerainty. This is the key truth. Only people whose country has not, happily, suffered colonial domination would seek to ignore or obfuscate this. The English should do the honourable thing and withdraw from Ireland and I have no doubt that if given the opportunity in a referendum they would vote overwhelmingly to do so. But, as with the Lisbon Treaty, they will never have such an opportunity.
"The Brits DEMANDED that the whole of Ireland remain subjugated, that's why a War of Independence was needed in the first place bcos they backed up their DEMAND with military might!"
Agreed. And I WASN'T contesting THAT.
"They got out of the 26 counties bcos public opinion in GB, (including George V's profound disquiet concerning the treatment of his Irish subjects), and abroad, esp. the US, wouldn't have tolerated the increased level of savagery that would have been necessary to supress the insurrection."
Agreed.
"The 6 counties were hived away bcos they constituted a large enough area with a built-in Unionist majority to furnish a viable statelet. Its existence and extent were dictated purely by sectarian headcounting."
A. And HOW does this contest my point that the plebiscite was democratic and ultimately conducted on the same basis with which the Irish gained independence in the South?
B. Compared to most elections, even in the US, the Irish plebiscite was remarkably nonsectarian. In the South, the overwhelming majority- including Protestants and Anglo-Irish- favored independence. In the North, an overwhelming majority- including most Catholics, I must add- favored continued Union.
"These 6 counties never before constituted a differentiated area or region of the country for any administrative, political or governmental purpose. Ireland up to 1922 was always considered as a single unit, counties were merely local administrative areas while the 4 provinces were merely historical entities with no governmental apparatus at all. BTW the six counties in question are part of Ulster but three other Ulster counties – Tír Chonaill, Muineachán and An Cabhán – are under Irish rule."
Agreed, but you ARE MISSING THE POINT. The messy nature of "Self-determination" means that the vote is broken down not by strictly rational methods, but by the vote. The Northern provinces were never a separate unit prior to the plebiscite, but they were made so by the Democratic vote of their inhabitants, much like Schleswig-Holstein was partitioned between Denmark and Germany after WWII, or India and Pakistan partitioned themselves from the Raj. It isn't neat, and the very nature of the vote means it rarely if ever WILL fall neatly along administrative lines. The dividing fact was that the people of those provinces voted for Union, and their neighbors didn't. Take it as it is, but that was how it went. Would you have preferred if the British were allowed to keep the parts of Ulster that voted for independence for the sake of keeping things within administrative/provincial boundaries? Didn't think so.
"In other words the will of the Irish people (80% in favour of independence in a free and fair election) concerning the future of their country was repudiated by 20% of the population backed by the armed might of the world Superpower at the time."
No it wasn't, as shown by the fact that the British allowed those regions that had voted for independence to leave. The North voted for continued union. What allows one side to invalidate their democratic desire for it, particularly given the fact that it was hinged upon the same justification upon which the rest of Ireland gained independence?
The bottom line is that the majority of the Irish voted for independence, while the majority of the North Irish voted for Union. And both the British government and the mainstream of the Irish government (including Collins) accepted both results. Are you now saying that if the vote had been the other way around, the dissidents should have been forcefully kept within the British Empire?
" The sectarian allegiance of those in the 6 counties who wish to perpetuate this injustice is irrelevant."
So, when the vote goes YOUR way, it is legitimate, but when the vote goes the OTHER way, it is an "injustice?" That is what we call a "double standard."
" ALL the people of Ireland are entitled to a say in how ALL their country is governed."
Had the Irish plebiscite been conducted like a normal election, that would have been the case. But this was not a normal election. This was a plebiscite, conducted using the methods concurrently in use in Silesia and Dalmatia, where the vote of the Dublin busboys only counted for their precinct, and the votes Ulster pub association likewise remained within their precinct. That was how it was conducted in Silesia 1920, in 1945 Schleswig, and in 1947 Indian Subcontinent. Does Ireland deserve a separate rule?
" Everyone of whatever political or religious persuasion is entitled to their say but no self-annointed minority is entitled to sunder the country against the will of four fifths of their fellow citizens."
Sorry, that is how a Plebiscite GOES. Welcome to politics. And I say this knowing all too well that a good portion of California and the rest of the American Southwest could one day voluntarily annex itself to Mexico on that basis. I wouldn't like it, but I would hardly be up in arms trying to prevent it.
" That's straightforward democracy and would be clearly seen as such if, say, a Russian minority in Latvia/Ukraine etc. backed by the might of Russia transferred something like a quarter of their country's landmass to Moscow's suzerainty."
If it was a plebiscite and it was conducted freely and fairly by those who lived there (rather than, say, bussed in voters from St. Petersburg), why not?
"This is the key truth. Only people whose country has not, happily, suffered colonial domination would seek to ignore or obfuscate this."
Strange. The peoples of the Indian subcontinent did, and yet they STILL allowed that to happen when Pakistan emerged during partition in 1947. Methinks you need to study history.
" The English should do the honourable thing and withdraw from Ireland"
If the returns from the North one year say "Yeh, we want to go join with the Republic now", than yes. But until then, what right does the British government have to disregard the rights and voice of their own citizens? About the same as if an irish province were to unilaterally annex itself back to Britain against the popular vote in that province (namely: NONE).
"and I have no doubt that if given the opportunity in a referendum they would vote overwhelmingly to do so."
Sorry to say this, but the past eighty years has handily disproved that.
" But, as with the Lisbon Treaty, they will never have such an opportunity."
Perhaps, perhaps not. But the bottom line is that you need to calm down and actually realize that this was not conducted in a vacuum. The same rules that governed the Irish partition government what happened on the Adriatic Coast and in Silesia at the time, and the eevvvilll British did not write those rules. The bottom line is that the Northern Irish voted for union, and as per the terms of the agreement, they were granted their wish, just as the Irish heartland voted for independence and gained it. This was not an isolated case, so don't act like it was. The Northern Irish have consistently voted for continued union, so what right do we have to disregard that?
If the Republicanists win a majority, I will have no issue with them being allowed to join the Republic, for the same reason I respect the right of the Northern Irish to remain with Britain now: what justification is there to disregard the democratic will of the people?
Ponder that for a second, and image if the election had gone the other way, in some bizarre alternate universe. Would you have remained equally open to such a "winner takes all" approach?