Montesquieu: The Rules of War and Lessons For Today
by Paul A. RaheIn an earlier post, I bemoaned the fact that very few well-educated Americans know who Montesquieu was – and I drew attention to the fact that the author of The Spirit of Laws was more often cited by the American Founding Fathers than any other figure, that his magnum opus was quickly translated into virtually every European language, and that he exercised an influence in England and on the European continent during and for a time after the second half of the eighteenth century no less profound than that which he exercised in our own country.

Needless to say, there were reasons for Montesquieu’s pre-eminence. That his thinking deserves attention today may be less obvious, but it is no less true. To begin with, Montesquieu was the first to grasp the conditions within which modern war is waged, and his insights bear on the history of our country and on its situation today.
Charles-Louis de Secondat, baron de La Brède et de Montesquieu was born on the 18th of January 1689, at a time in which the Glorious Revolution was underway in England, and he came of age in the course of the War of the Spanish Succession, which lasted from 1701 to 1713. He watched from afar with dismay as England’s duke of Marlborough repeatedly annihilated the legions of Louis XIV, the Sun King of France: first at the battle of Blenheim on 13 August 1704, when Montesquieu was fifteen; then – in the brief span of years stretching from 1706, when Montesquieu was seventeen, to 1709, when he was twenty – at Ramillies, Oudenarde, Lille, and Malplaquet.
Later, in the commonplace book that he labeled Mes pensées, Montesquieu would look back on these events and remark,
That day at Blenheim, we lost the confidence that we had acquired by thirty years of victories. . . . Whole battalions gave themselves up as prisoners of war; we regretted their being alive, as we would have regretted their deaths.
It seemed as if God, who wished to set limits to empires, had given to the French this capacity to acquire, along with this capacity to lose, this fire that nothing resists, along with this despondency that makes one ready to submit to anything.
In fact, the situation was even more dramatic. Prior to Blenheim, the French had not lost a major battle in 150 years. Looking back on the battle of Blenheim, Winston Churchill would write,
Battles are the principal milestones in secular history. Modern opinion resents this uninspiring truth, and historians often treat the decisions in the field as incidents in the dramas of politics and diplomacy. But great battles, won or lost, change the entire course of events, create new standards of values, new moods, new atmospheres, in armies and in nations, to which all must conform.
We may find this awkward, but Churchill was undoubtedly right. The fall of the Berlin Wall twenty years ago this past November, and the dismemberment of the Soviet Union, which followed not long thereafter, worked a similar sea-change in our own world.
For members of Montesquieu’s generation, for young Frenchmen who had watched in horror as their country’s armies suffered defeat after defeat, the War of the Spanish Succession marked a turning point. In the age of Louis XIV, no one in France bothered to learn English – apart from some of those who lived in the port cities on France’s Atlantic coast and were involved in the trade with England. In the aftermath of the Sun King’s humiliation on the field of the sword, all of that changed. Not only did the young Voltaire, born a few years after Montesquieu, journey to England; he learned the language well enough to be able to begin composing works in it; and he was by no means alone. Montesquieu arrived in London not long after Voltaire left, and both soon thereafter published books inspired by what they had learned.
For Voltaire, the subject addressed in his Philosophical Letters was a passing fancy. For Montesquieu, however, this subject was a life-long- obsession – even though, or perhaps because, he found, he dared not address this subject in the volume that he began composing in the early 1730s after his return from England (a volume in which his Considerations on the Causes of the Greatness of the Romans and their Decline was meant to be a prelude to Reflections on Universal Monarchy in Europe and to a work on England, its Constitution, and way life).
Montesquieu was the first to recognize that, at the end of the seventeenth century, a profound and arguably permanent transformation had taken place in European politics. He saw that commerce had replaced war as the force dominant in international relations; that a well-ordered Carthage could now defeat Rome on the field of the sword; and that, in the wake of the Glorious Revolution, Great Britain – with its separation of powers, its policy of religious toleration, its devotion to industry and trade, and its empire over the sea – had come to occupy a pre-eminence that no existing continental power could hope to challenge. That European monarchy – with its hereditary aristocracy, its ethos of honor, its suspicion of trade, and its appetite for conquest, empire, and glory – could not be sustained in an age in which money had become the sinews of war: this he also knew.
In Montesquieu’s opinion, two successive revolutions, neither likely to be reversed, provided this transformation in politics with its underpinning. The first of these took place in the sphere of religion. Montesquieu was persuaded that Machiavelli was correct in supposing that, when Christianity supplanted paganism, it made classical republicanism obsolete.
When the virtue of the ancients was “in full force,” Montesquieu writes in The Spirit of Laws, “they did things that we no longer see & which astonish our little souls.” If his contemporaries are unable to rise to the same level, it is, he suggests, because the “education” given the ancients “never suffered contradiction” while “we receive three educations different” from and even “contrary” to one another: “that of our fathers, that of our schoolmasters, that of the world. What we are told in the last overthrows the ideas imparted by the first two.” In short, there is now “a contrast between the engagements” which arise “from religion” and “those” which arise “from the world” that “the ancients knew nothing of.” This is why the moderns possess such “little souls.”
That was one aspect of the revolution that had taken place. There was another that Machiavelli had also noticed. In the Florentine’s Art of War, when the dialogue’s protagonist, Fabrizio Colonna, laments the decline of martial virtue in Europe, he traces its disappearance to ancient Rome’s elimination of the republics that had once flourished there. Europe’s failure to recover after the fall of the Roman empire he explains partly with regard to the difficulty involved in restoring something that has been spoiled. Then he mentions a second, no less salient cause: “the fact that the mode of living today, as a consequence of the Christian religion, does not impose the necessity for self-defense that existed in ancient times.” In antiquity, he explains,
men conquered in war were either massacred or were consigned to perpetual enslavement where they led their lives in misery. Then, the towns conquered were either destroyed or the inhabitants were driven out, their goods seized, and, after being sent out, they were dispersed throughout the world. And so those overcome in war suffered every last misery. Frightened at this prospect, men kept military training alive and honored those who were excellent in it. But today this fear is for the most part lost. Of the conquered, few are massacred; none are held for long in prison since they are easily freed. Cities, even if they have rebelled a thousand times, are not eliminated; men are left with their goods so that most of the time what is feared is a ransom. In consequence, men do not want to subject themselves to military orders.
This alteration in the rules of war had an additional consequence, of particular interest to Montesquieu, which Colonna is no less inclined to regret: “That present wars impoverish the lords who are victorious as much as those who lose – for, if the one loses his state, the other loses his money and his possessions.” In antiquity, he explains, war was for the victors a source of enrichment: they could sell into slavery those they captured and seize and sell their lands. In modern times, thanks to Christianity, the costs all too often exceed the gains.
To the changes in outlook effected by Christianity Montesquieu was no less sensitive than Machiavelli. The developments within the law of nations – which Machiavelli’s interlocutor traces to Christianity, laments, and evidently hopes to reverse – Montesquieu in his Reflections on Universal Monarchy takes as an historic achievement, and it is on this basis also that he judges universal monarchy of the sort that Louis XIV had attempted to establish a moral impossibility. “In earlier times,” the Frenchman explains, “one would destroy the towns that one had captured, one would sell the lands and, far more important, the inhabitants as well.”
The sacking of a town would pay the wages of an Army, & a successful Campaign would enrich a Conqueror. At present, we regard such barbarities with a horror no more than just. We ruin ourselves [financially] in capturing places which capitulate, which we preserve intact, & which most of the time we return.
The Romans carried off to Rome in their Triumphs all the wealth of the Nations they conquered. Today victories confer none but sterile Laurels.
When a Monarch sends an Army into enemy country, he sends at the same time a part of his treasure so that the army can subsist; he enriches the country he has begun to conquer, & quite often he puts it in a condition to drive him out.
Herein lies what Montesquieu regarded as a delightful paradox, for in modern times imperial expansion tends to eliminate the conditions prerequisite for the imperial venture’s success. “Here,” he will later write in his Spirit of Laws, “it is necessary to render homage to our modern times, to the species of reasoning dominant at present, to today’s religion, to our philosophy, & our mores” as well.
The second of the two seemingly irreversible revolutions noted by Montesquieu took place in the sphere of commerce. In Montesquieu’s view, Europe differs from the rest of the world in one crucial particular. “At present,” he writes in his Reflections on Universal Monarchy, it “is responsible for all the Commerce in the Universe & for the Carrying Trade in its entirety.” He is persuaded as well that in his own day, at least in Europe, Machiavelli’s famous dictum has been proven wrong and that money really has become the sinews of war: that, “to the extent to which a State takes a greater or lesser part in Commerce or in the Carrying Trade, its power necessarily grows or diminishes.” In consequence, he contends, since war gets in the way of trade, “a State which appears to be victorious abroad ruins itself [financially] at home, while states which remain neutral augment their strength.” It can even happen that “those conquered regain their strength.” In fact, “decline generally sets in at the time of the greatest successes, for these can neither be achieved nor sustained except by violent means.”
These two revolutions – the rise of Christianity and progress in commerce – allow us to comprehend how it is that, in modern times, a well-ordered Carthage, such as England, “whose principal strength consists in her credit and commerce,” could “render fictive wealth real,” equip “her Hannibal” with “as many men as she could buy,” and “send them into combat,” while Louis XIV’s ill-ordered French Rome, “in a spirit of vertigo,” patiently awaited “the blows” solely “in order to receive them” and fielded “great armies” only “to see” her “fortresses taken” and her “garrisons deprived of courage, and to languish in a defensive war for which” she had “no capacity at all.”
England’s status as an island, its commercial orientation, the fact that it was interested in policing the sea and keeping it open for trade and not in making conquests on the continent of Europe, as well as the fact that in England an elected Parliament exercised supremacy and that its citizens trusted their government and were willing to lend it money – all of these considerations, taken together, gave to the great antagonist of Louis XIV’s would-be universal monarchy a strength that no martial monarchy could overcome. This was the first great fact that Montesquieu’s Spirit of Laws brought to the attention of England’s colonists in North America, and figures such as Benjamin Franklin and Alexander Hamilton did not miss the significance of an observation that Montesquieu made in passing regarding their fellow Pennsylvanians and New Yorkers – to the effect that another commercial people was taking “shape in the forests” of the New World under England’s protection, a great people endowed by it with a “form of government, which brings with it prosperity.”
Montesquieu’s hypothesis concerning the transformation of war has been sorely tested on four occasions since his day – first, in the Napoleonic Wars; then, in World War I and II; and, finally in the Cold War. On each occasion, a commercial, maritime power not unlike ancient Carthage – or a coalition of such powers – squared off against a martial, continental power modeled on ancient Rome; and, on each occasion, the commercial power or powers managed initially to stave off defeat and later to achieve a decisive victory.
That this may not always be the result Montesquieu also demonstrates. Commercial powers tend to take their eyes off the ball. They are impatient. They tend to lose in negotiation what they have gained in struggle. They tend also to be cheap. They mistake a truce for a peace, and they disarm at the end of a war to a point that invites a renewal of war. William of Orange fought Louis XIV to a standstill in the War of the League of Augsburg, which ended in 1697. Four years later, thanks to the fact that the English parliament rejected William’s pleas that a military force adequate to deter Louis be kept up, the English found themselves involved in the War of the Spanish Succession. There is much to be learned from Montesquieu.
His reasoning, as I have argued in detail in Montesquieu and the Logic of Liberty and more briefly in Soft Despotism, Democracy’s Drift, deserves today the close attention that it was accorded in and for a time after the second half of the eighteenth century.






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140 Comments
Tis a shame our POTUS wasn't influenced by Montrsquieu instead of Allinsky.
This country will fall when to few care enough to defend it.
The “Art of War” says find your enemy’s strength and use it against them. The terrorists’ strength is that they are willing to die because they believe they are going to heaven. To defeat them you have to stop the belief that they are going to heaven. If every terrorist was sprayed with pig blood before or after their death they cannot get into heaven. Their willingness to die would drop dramatically.
Thank you for this Professor Rahe.
Wow… 2500 words without a relevant contemporary point. There's ten minutes of my life I'll never get back.
All of which underscores why if the government becomes too large and too oppressive the citizens lose. We are a nation of traders and merchants. I always felt that the real reason we went to war was to win, then open exchange of goods and services with the conquered nation. Our bent was not conquest and empire as the left would have you believe (that is their projection), but trade and commercial enterprise. That is the economic expression of liberty.
so they should spray people with pig blood before they get on a plane?
peace is the best conditions for prosperity, think about it war mucks up the whole economic system, mis-use of scarce resources, distribution trouble, all to the detriment of the People the consumer.
I offer you Adm. Alfred Thayer Mahan. Sea power vs. the heartland. Like Britain, America is an island nation.
Things like this embolden our enemies: Sending 30,000 troops into battle, then out the other side of your mouth setting a withdrawal date. Trying war criminals in our nation's courts. Flying around the world apologizing for American exceptionalism. Decorating the WH Christmas tree with the face of a dictator. With a president like this, who needs enemies?
the libs would just have us all sprayed with pig blood in the name of individual rights for the terrorists.
The battle field of ideas.. We have entered a new phase of civil war. Where the internet is the battle ground, and people can be informed before it spirals into blood and hopefully it’s prevention. Maybe this time the kings will abdicate before blood is shed, Because they will see they have no followers, but I doubt it too many cling to the past and hide their heads in the sand. It is a shame those who fear change and war will cause the very thing they fear and how many will pay for this folly. The two party system has stolen the soul of America and as freedom drips into the dust upon the ground, those who support the parties will know it was their fault and there will be no redemption as flames from the ovens whip around our feet. When the riots begin and the cities burn the cause of the spark will not matter and the countdown to our fall would have begun.
Now is the time to stand while ideas can still save a country.
You could always go BACK to your Huffington Post….???
If we can't fight a war to WIN, then what is the point?? Maybe Obammy should ask some of the troops that VOLUNTEERED to enlist, to PROTECT this country, what they think about leaving before the job is done!!!
Not to mention the time it took to count the words.
The point is clearly there. Sorry you have been indoctrinated.
Sadly for you it is a free country and I will post where ever I please. But I encourage you to read HP and other blogs where you can find a broad range of political opinions. It will get the synapses firing on both sides of your brain and make you a smarter and better informed voter.
Perhaps I can act as the "mobile library van" bringing knowledge to the less fortunate who don't have access to the source.
You do not have the right to post anywhere you want. I can not stop you from posting here, but there are those who can.
The length of an article is easy to gauge by how long it takes to read. Plus most of these guys who write a lot of blogs think in 2500 word blocks. 5000 is an expose.
Don't feel too sorry for me. I'm a virtual beacon of light in this sea of darkness.
The contemporary point was made quite effectively many, many years ago.
Is it me, or are you threatening physical violence if a duly elected president of the United States doesn't step down. Don't be such a coward… come right on out and tell us all what your secret plan is to oust a sitting president.
The American people and their representatives in the congress support the president. Daily tracking pols are snapshots in time and go up and down. The only poll that counts is on election day. So I suggest you tone down the violent rhetoric and be part of the process. If you feel marginalized it is a result of a disturbed ideology and has nothing to do with the president.
General Pershing did just that in the Phillipines a century ago. It worked.
Its not politically correct now, of course.
Everything is black and white to teabaggers. Sadly, reality is never as crystal clear as it might appear to you. Winning and losing wars have little meaning when you win the war and lose the support of the people… both at home and in the country you have decided to attack. Or if you attack a country for no reason and then have to spend $100 billion each year to keep them from killing each other. No one wins.
more like a firefly in daylight.
Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes … But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
So here we are, Ayatollah. And if the abuses evident within this or any future government continue, we have legal mechanisms in place to remove anyone from office, even a "sitting president." I'll remind you that the Nazi Party and Hitler himself actually "polled" quite well before they became the scourge of the earth . But unlike the Nazi supporters and people like you, "We the People" will not long tolerate the insidious rise of despotism upon our shores.
Who ruled that "you need to … keep them from killing each other?"
Our problem is that we haven't overtly benefited financially from plunder we take from conquered territories. After our expenditure of treasure and blood, we should have made Iraqi oil our exclusive resource without enabling it to be sold internationally. And we wouldn't have agreed to a "treaty" that did not entilte us to huge permanent bases with geopolitical impact, and exempt our personnel from any Iraqi law. We do not act as we should to our benefit.
People will support you because they are coerced and thus intimidated. That's the status quo as they act in a way that enables them to survive. During the perioid of dominance by Rome, a Roman citizen would walk safely throughout the world as the consequences of assaulting a Roman citizen were such that they were avoided even by the most savage peoples within the realm. And Roman dominance lasted a long time. We are so far short-lived.
Why is having responsive policies viewed derisively? Black and white, crystalization of thought is not a bad thing despite the view of academia. Fuzzy math may be useful but fuzzy thinking gene4rally is not.
Why would they want to ban me? I'm just the messenger offering truth to those who lack access to people willing to disagree with them. You may not like the message, but you need to hear it.
In fact, I just got a nice e-mail from this site thanking me for my patronage.
So to all my teabagger friends, you're welcome.
That was a good one… you got me
Be afraid.
"Winning and losing wars have little meaning when you win the war and lose the support of the people".
You mean like Obama getting elected.
from the Amazon
Product Description
"This fresh examination of the works of Montesquieu seeks to understand the shortcomings of the modern democratic state in light of this great political thinker’s insightful critique of commercial republicanism.
The western democracies’ muted response to victory in the Cold War signaled the presence of a pervasive discontent, a sense that despite this victory liberal democracy itself was deeply flawed. Paul A. Rahe argues that to understand this phenomenon we must re-examine—starting with Montesquieu—the nature of liberal democracy, its character, and its propensities. In a brilliant exposition of the works of Montesquieu Rahe identifies the profound sense of uneasiness fostered by the modern republic as a source of weakness and as the principal cause of the present discontents."
None of your "special" wit addressed my statement.
"bring all you got"
So what, no gloves? of any kind at all? Anything that hurts the Enemy is A-O-K! Lock and load with extreme prejudice yeee-haw!
"you might not have peace but you will have quiet."
sounds like "settling for less" to me. America is #1. Why should America settle for less or compromise with any situation?
** During the perioid of dominance by Rome, a Roman citizen would walk safely throughout the world as the consequences of assaulting a Roman citizen were such that they were avoided even by the most savage peoples within the realm. **
Once upon a time, this country's citizens enjoyed that respect.
I think if you will go back and read my post, you will see that I never used the pronoun "you" to insinuate that I have personally been charged with keeping Iraqis from killing each other. But that is the reason our soldiers are still in that country. Iraq is a tribal country and have little national identity and order could quickly disintegrate should we decide to leave now. They have no tradition of democracy and would quickly turn to another strong man to restore order.
So correct me if I am not understanding you correctly, but you believe we should take their natural resources by force? Perhaps we could ship Iraqi slaves back to the states in crates while we are at it to handle our domestic chores. We won the war so we deserve that right don't we? Shouldn't we be entitles to the stuff of anyone we can beat up?
Thanks for your honesty phlog… it is refreshing to hear a bagger articulate what I have always believed about you but couldn't really be sure. Most lack your candor.
I also thank you Mr. Rahe. Posts such a these, those others focused on the Federalist and Anti Federalist papers, these are the posts that set BG aside. I certainly hope to see more and more like them. This stuff is denied the modern undergrad in favor of drivel, and few post grads will ever be exposed to any worthy degree, which is downright criminal.
mik .. typical of left wing nut job to spin a warning of on coming trouble into BS.. From high unemployment to a dollar that is worthless is the seeds of trouble even in this country. riots have started over traffic tickets and Escalated into the burning of cities. STUDY YOUR HISTORY FOOL. It is not my principle that is the trouble it is the lack principles of our leadership that causing problems. I stood for my country once, but this is not the country I defended and I will not stand to defend this corruption, so it will die all on it's own without my help. too many fools like you will kill it.
It's taken me a while to figure out why your smug comments have angered me. I guess it's because I'm more than passing familiar with your kind, and I've watch people like you make use of a limited education and thorough indoctrination to poison our republic with moronic, destructive ideas for a long time. You're catching grief here not for participating in debate, but for muddying the waters with poorly concieved ideas. You are an enemy of prosperity, and enemy of justice and fairness and an enemy of human excellence and achievement. You're ideology sir, is the foulest enemy of liberty and happiness and will lead to a great measure of misery for all. I leave you with this warning. You are a useful tool for those who wish to rule, and when you are no longer useful you will be devoured by the monster you helped create.
I think what you were trying to say is that my comments are unwelcome here and that while you have no power, there are people who think like you who will somehow want to stop me from posting. Did I understand you correctly?
What else is there to address?
Despots don't live in a representative democracy John. If you don't like the direction of the country and want change then go vote. Persuade others to vote with you. Defeat us at the polls. That is the American way.
You the people need to get out there and be heard. You're whining would get a lot more sympathy if you were facing down a dictator who never had to face the voting public. But everyone of the lawmakers in congress and the president has faced down people like you at the polls and prevailed. You only marginalize your movement by complaining that no one will listen to you.
Oh, and don't forget the first law of blogging… he who invokes the image of Hitler, Stalin, Nazis or anyone else who never faced the voters, loses.
just like rome our time could be now.
I understand your frustration. I have lived long enough to be disappointed by elections too. Still I have never lost faith in the people. As bad as things have looked at times the people are always right in the long run. In the short run we see all kinds of wild swings. But over time the wisdom of American voters has been validated.
Now it's been a tougher pill to swallow for conservatives. You have had some success at winning elections and in the courts. But you have not shown much interest in or talent for governing. In fact, I can make a pretty good argument that you are hostile to government regardless of whether you are in power or out. It's a conflict of conscious you have never resolved. That is, how do we stand by our ideological principles when we need to provide constituent services to get reelected? It leads to bad policy like tax cuts along with spending hikes. And free trade while other countries restrict American inports.
I don't think you will ever truly be comfortable in power.
Sorry I've missed you crow… I'll take a look at your posts and respond if I find anything interesting.
You mean the white people…
Good one kooz… kudos.
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you are fool just like the republicans I deal with everyday. I have read your words but you haven't read mine so you have no clue who you are debating. You are simply a government party member spewing words that have no meaning to you. How much do they pay you?
What is the price of selling your country out?
An article referencing a classical author and you read it at 250 words per minute.
Well, there's the problem.
Sadly, you are correct.
And the party / ideology most responsible for that?
Democrats / liberals.
I should probably hold out for a raise huh? Whatever they are paying me, it's not nearly enough to listen to the nonsense on this list.
Well Phil, I've never claimed to be gifted. But I am thorough…
Eeeuuu guys… enough with the pig's blood. You re going to put me off my soup.
What are you? What good do you do? What do you stand for? Run child run.. go back to your democratic handlers.. or you can stay and learn.
That people do not know Montesquieu is one symptom of a larger disease. We are no longer educating our youth, we are indoctrinating children with the states agenda. We may or may not come through this current admin, and both houses of congress flat out lust for tyuranny. But know one thing, if we allow indoctrination to persist, Liberty, and the American way of life will fail.
I see that you are trying to correlate him to our current situation. But if we fail to recognize the rout the radical left has used, (our youth) we are doomed to damnation via tyranny. There are five million children who are wards of the state in America right now. And allegiance to tyranny indoctrinated in our youth in public schools is a fact. Tyranny absolute in part begets tyranny absolute in all. & as far as war, our first Revolutionary War was won by the spirit of Liberty that unified it's people. Liberty infinite, in & of itself, is the right to live your life as you see fit. & god by any name, is a moral imerative. We need to unite in the understanding of Liberties powers. & cast tyranny into the fire that regardless of outcome, it is destined for.
Let us not name god, but fallow under him as one.
If that were true, people of color would not support the Democratic party by such a wide margin. I don't think they are put off by the Republican party, It's the conservative philosophy and southern racists that chase them away.
I would argue that the cold war was not so much won by the west as it was lost by the decay of communism. It is a corrupt ideology that consumes people and was bound to collapse from within. The only reason it lasted as long as it did was Russian nationalism… they are a proud people.
The Truman doctrine articulated the need to contain international aggression and keep pressure applied by maintaining vigilance. We didn't do everything perfectly, but we didn't have to. They never had a chance to win the hearts and minds.
Get your brain food here:
http://www.amazon.com/Montesquieu-Cambridge-Histo...
Thanks bar, I'll stick around for a while.
If you want to know who or what I am just go read my posts. I'm an open book and don't have a secret agenda. You can even see me if you want to go to http://www.hotberry.com
well at least your talking..that more than most republicans.
my point is that we applied that principle in world war 2 the germans and japanese arent still killing our soldiers. we tried the kinder gentler approach in every conflict since then how well has it worked
i am back.. you still stand for nothing.
That is true.
People of color do not bother themselves with looking at facts.
Democrats, with segregationists like Strum Thurmond, George Wallace and Robert Byrd, former KKK Kleagle and Exalted Cyclops, opposed integration for years, and have succeeded in blaming the Republican party for obstructing integration and painting them 'racist'.
As for people of color supporting Democrats, if they paid attention to history, people of color would know that it was Eisenhower, a Republican President, who ordered the National Guard into Little Rock in '58 to integrate the schools there and started the ball rolling.
If people of color did a little reading on their own, and had refrained from voting for a presidential candidate simply because of skin color, your claim might be valid.
That's actually not so; just a fairy tale and it wasn't pig's blood, he supposedly ( but didn't ! ) bury the dead Muslims with a pig, to discourage terrorists.
it seems a republican socialist didn't like the truth. but typical they just do a hateful thumb and no debate.
Well said j…
I would argue with a couple of your facts. Strom Thurmond was definitely a racist and southern Democrat. But he was never a progressive and indeed, left the Democrats and became a Republican after progressive Democrats led the civil rights effort. George Wallace were both contrite and apologized many times for their past opposition to integration of schools and civil rights legislation. They were wrong and admitted it.
One more thing about Strom Thurmond. He was a better human being than any of us realized during his lifetime. Remember it came out after his death that he fathered a child with a black woman who worked for his family. We learned that he took responsibility for the child and supported and educated her, and maintained a lifelong relationship. Sadly, when the news of the illegitimate child became public, South Carolina congressman Joe (you lie!) Wilson called the child a smear from the left on the reputation of a great man.
Ike was my man. You will never hear me criticize him. Harry Truman hated him, but I think he was the perfect man at the right time.
Little unfair to suggest people of color are somehow more ignorant of history than yourself. And not true in the least.
it hasn't been represenative for long time.. when use the power and wealth of government like government parties then this is not even a republic.
the rules of war are simple bring all you got and unleashe it when your enemy is afraid to lift a finger against you you might not have peace but you will have quiet.
Your perspective is poisoned by ideology. Our country is not under the boot of a foreign dictator as we were in the 18th century. That is what united us to fight off oppression. Today we live in a representative democracy and we come together every two years to vote and agree to live by the will of the majority.
But you sound unwilling or unable to abide by the will of the people. You throw around inflammatory language like you have some idea of what your are talking about, and tell us some foreign philosopher who died 250 years ago justifies your need for nonstop war.
And the part about indoctrination of our children is just outrageous. If you want to turn your kids into little right wing robots you'll have to do it at home. We are not going to do it for you in our public schools.
gowidgodd
** Little unfair to suggest people of color are somehow more ignorant of history than yourself. **
I don't wish to imply that I am more well-grounded in history than anyone else, but
that people of color support the Democrat party, given its documented history of opposition to integration, as blindly as they do suggests to me that they are not reading and looking at history, relying instead on what the Democrat party feeds to them, to the exclusion of all else.
Can you honestly say that if the facts regarding integration were fully known to people of color, that they would still support the Democrat party as soundly as they do?
"Keep killing the fighters" will help, find and kill the mullahs who recruited them would help more.
Thanks for posting!! Funny, and by chance, I'm a little more than 1/10 the way through Spirit of Laws at this week, myself. Got to it by a funny zig-zag reference path starting last summer with Mein Kampf… then Communist Manefesto…. then Protocol of Elders of Zion… then the Dialog in Hell between Machiavelli and Montesquieu…. then The Prince… and finally here (after some diversions through Common Sense, Constitution, the Federalist Papers, the 5000 year leap and some Commie International archives…assorted Trotsky/Lennin/Stalin collected works) There are many great historical references and quotes to follow from Spirit of Laws so far as well…. if only there were more time and I were a faster reader!! I felt last year that I have much educatiing of myself to do, since my background was not political science and much is going on that requires political awareness. I only hope more will do the same.
I wonder what Montesquieu would say about the current state of international trade in which a rising power, China, is essentially a monarchy, or at least a highly corrupt oligarchy, bent on accumulating vast stores of wealth by manipulating the international monetary system, exploiting the cheap labor of its heretofore poverty-stricken citizens, and flaunting the rules of the international trading regime, the WTO, by exploiting those who abide by them, for example, in ignoring virtually all the rules of intellectual property.
I think Machiavelli would look at China and feel pride in their devotion to everything he taught in "The Prince."
Montesquieu, on the other hand, might look further down the road and see in China a nation building on the diminishing patience of an exploited workforce descending into chaos once those left out of the largess of their current structure gain enough critical mass and push their demands for consideration past the tipping point.
I hope that event approaches soon. Otherwise, we'll be at the mercy of Chinese merchant princes whose concern for the rest of the world, given their obvious lack of concern for their own people, will be nil.
I guess I wasn't clear. Southern Democrats undoubtedly used the party apparatus to oppress blacks during Reconstruction and well into the 20th century. But the party began to change when FDR became president. Racial progress was slow at first because he still needed southern dems to form an electoral majority. He did however plant the seeds of reform. Harry Truman later integrated military units, and as you pointed out, Ike enforced the court orders that led to school integration.
But southern racist Democrats were feeling more and more marginalized by the party. After the party led the effort for civil rights reform (an effort that included progressive Republicans) the south began to move to the Republican party and vote for Republican candidates, and blacks rewarded the Dems by moving to their party. It was a realignment that wasn't completed until the mid 1990s. Take a look at the results. The former Democratic south is now solidly in the Republican column and blacks are Democrats.
When LBJ signed the Civil Rights Act he said something like, "I fear we (the Democrats) have lost the south for a generation. Well, he underestimated… it's been two generations and doesn't show any signs of changing soon.
I think you are suggesting that black voters have been somehow tricked by Democrats and their loyalty should have remained with the Republican party. I'm saying that they have an excellent grasp of social history and are voting in their best interest.
"Strom Thurmond was definitely a racist and southern Democrat. But he was never a progressive"
No, he was a populist. "Progressive" is a fictional label for a highly regressive attitude ("rule by a kleptocrat").
"progressive Democrats led the civil rights effort"
The initial supporters of civil rights were all Republicans. It was only after the Dem's realized that the minority votes could be bought with public largess that they started pretending to support minorities. Welfare destroyed many minority ethnic groups.
Well, I have to agree with you in part. I believe political contributions from non-people (unions, corporations etc.) are corrupting the process. We should be allowed to give as much money to our favorite political candidates as we want. But we should ban soft money and contributions from organizations that are not spending their own money. We should also require that candidates account for the source of every dime collected and where they are spent. Public campaign funding for congress would help enlarge the pool of possible candidates, much as we do for president.
There is no such thing as a corporate or union political contribution. There are only bribes and extortion.
I'm a bit confused by your latest posts. If you are asking about my political party affiliation, I'm a Democrat. If I have been unclear about that I apologize. As for what I stand for, I support the agenda of the president for the most part. He moves a little slow for my taste, but political process is often ugly and not much fun to watch. I'm unhappy about our increased commitment in Afghanistan. I don't see any future for us there and I fear Obama did it for political considerations. If I'm right, I suspect he will find a way to get us out of there early in his second term.
we agree that is scary.. I would go one futher that politicain could not accept money from outside of his district. I hate all election laws and practices such gerrymandering that are for party power not representation. I want a election process not a re-election process.
I graduated from college in South Carolina when Thurmond was a senator and I'm familiar with his politics. I guess it's accurate to describe him as a populist if you don't count the black population. As far as I know he never did renounce the racist platform he ran for president on like George Wallace and Robert Byrd did later in life.
Those comments say more about you than black voters.
Gerrymandering is one of my pet peeves and I wish there was someway to require political districts be drawn up in some kind of non partisan fashion. The I don't know how we accomplish that because it is elected officials that must make that kind of thing happen.
I knew if we stayed at it long enough we would find something to agree on.
And what do you think the Democrat party is trying to do by including illegal aliens in this anything-but-health-care bill trying to be shoved down our throats by Reid (democrat) Pelosi (democrat) and Oabama (democrat) but buying votes?
I define socialism as public ownership of the means of production. Our government has only gotten into the business of running companies reluctantly, and only then to save jobs from business cycles. We are so overwhelmingly a capitalistic society that it's disingenuous to label us socialist because of the very few areas where government has taken control.
For people on this list any government involvement at all brings out angry (and intentionally misleading) rhetoric.
Awesome I'm half way through Common Sense, the stuff is addictive in all of the best ways. What a wayward path we've followed.
I consider republicans and democrats one and the same.. When I call republican a democrat or the other way it throws them off their game.
To the parties the consumer is their party members and since party affilation is how they draw districts. registering unaffiliated is the only way for us serfs have to throw off their gerrymandering.
The people I care about is us serfs, we have denied a fair shake in this society, due to theses groups who use the power government to get their way.
Democratic party is the proper noun, not Democrat party
Illegal aliens are specifically excluded from both the House and Senate health care reform bills.
Democrats are in control of both houses of congress and control the agenda. Whether or not legislation is being "shoved down our throats" depends on where you sit. I think they are doing exactly what I voted for them to do.
Buying votes? Please spare me. Stop pretending like the Dems are just now inventing representative democracy. It's been done like this since the beginning of the republic.
As a fellow serf I agree with you.
Your problem then becomes how do you have any influence on the political process? It's fun to throw bricks, but in a two party system you have to pick a side and try and influence them from within. I would find your way frustrating.
your represenatives are your defenders not candy dispensers. the size of federal government is the problen not the solution. The feds defend the country and play ref between the states. not solve local problems.. the states take care of local needs.
we can talk about no party system the system of George Washington. To defeat the party system you must consider all parties as the same thus they are all to blame because they are.
You said, "The two party system has stolen the soul of America"
You are wrong in that assertion. Satan has done that through the apt application of greed, lasciviousness, and general corruption of the media, the body politic and society as a whole.
We, as with one voice, have traded our virtue for a lie. We live in a nation of "fisting", and "docking", and "scissoring", where the more depraved the behavior, the higher it is praised. We worry over what we eat and then proceed to defile ourselves to excess in the basest ways imaginable. All reason and logic has escaped us as a society. We have been given over to a delusion. This is all according to prophesy. Let those with eyes see; and ears, hear.
You blame this on men, but that is not the source of our torment. It's not a man, or a party…it's an idea, a thought, anideology. Where did it come from? Why is it so widely accepted without question? You be the judge of that. I've said all I need to on the subject.
Ahh, prof Rahe, you've hit the difference between US and the harabi califate; they conq/subject/loot their loser/Weak Horse victims for power and profit. Witness the Taliban conquest in Afgan after the Soviets pulled out and the real mujadin went into corrupt disunity. Witness the harabi brotherhood's success in Europe today. Witness ObiWon's refusal to admit we are at war. While we might well pull this out, like the Marines on Guadalcanal, our win will be rough and costly and the cost of our loss is slavery.
You, sir (Mikatollah), are proof positive that despotic personalities do, indeed, exist in ALL forms of government and societies. Satan's greatest trick was that he convinced so many that he does not exist.
You serve your master well. I pray that you shall be abundantly rewarded to overflowing for your efforts. May you live forever.
You, sir, are a neoMarxist racist. You possess the morals of an alley cat and the wisdom of a braying ass. You embody all the ills of Man, but you serve your master well. May you live forever.
L4S.. why are you responding.. you can't change a person mind by pushing them away.
it is man's doing.. and will take man to undue it. I will change it from soul to promise of America.
Badcrow is to MikTheAyatollah as hammer is to nail.
Thank you, CgntyDssdnt. My previous 'mental note' to look into Rahe's work was scribbled in disappearing ink. This one will take me to the Order Desk at Barne's & Noble.
Appropos of nothing, but an interesting note: The model for Machiavelli's "Prince" was Cesare Borgia, son of Pope Alexander and brother to the infamous Lucretia Borgia. Cesare was one of the "Triptych of Poisoners" in an old history book by that title (sorry, author's name eludes me), along with one of the Medici family, and the wife (Matilda, I think?) of William the Conquerer. Borgia was said to have tested his new poison concoctions by slipping the potion into food being served to his dinner guests.
mik, you're back
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