Earthquakes Don’t Kill Haitians – Underdevelopment Does
by Phelim McAleerIt is only a matter of time before Environmentalists and some scientists blame the Haiti earthquake and its massive death toll on Global Warming. They have already laid the groundwork with this Sept 2009 article in the UK Guardian newspaper. According to Professor Bill McGuire of University College London an upcoming scientific conference would show how “global warming threatens the planet in a new and unexpected way – by triggering earthquakes, tsunamis, avalanches and volcanic eruptions.” Despite these claims the earthquake in Haiti was not caused by Global Warming.
And the death and destruction was not because Haitians had made a pact with the devil.
The reason so many people died in Haiti is because its people live in poorly built houses and have not benefited from development which brings with it cities and houses which can withstand earthquakes.
But guess who are the most active opponents of cities and modern concrete housing?
The environmental movement, sees cities and growing urbanization as “unsustainable” and something that must be stopped. Mark Fenn, the head of the World Wildlife Fund (WWF) in Madagascar, believes development, in the form of jobs and prosperity, will be a negative for some of the world’s most impoverished people. These environmentalists view development as an evil – destroying indigenous cultures. As the millionaire Hollywood actor Ed Begley Jr. says they may be poor, but they seem happy and development might threaten this happiness.
For Begley rampant child mortality and horrible deaths in inadequate houses during earthquakes are small prices for others to pay as long we can visit them on eco-holidays.
Environmentalists call this sustainable development but the only thing sustained is poverty. In the face of this massive earthquake it has meant visiting death and destruction on some of the poorest people on the planet. Shame on environmentalists, and shame on Ed Begley Jr.
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287 Comments
Mr. McAleer,
Good article. You were prophetic, but you will be surprised at how quickly it happened. The illustrious scientist and Hollywood leftist Danny Glover has come out and balmed the earthquake in Haiti on Climate Change. They are so predictable, it was only a matter of time. "When", not "if."
http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/...
Climate change, has nothing whatsoever to do with tectonic plate shift. Any scientist in Geology 101 knows that. I can only wait for Algores statement…………..
What a load of BS. Partisan hacks using this event to whip up some hate on one of their favorite nebulous targets of "environmentalists." Sure, sure, Haiti's condition is the fault of bearded granola eaters insisting on a horrible thing like sustainable development. I mean, are you serious? Do you expect rational people to swallow this pretzel logic?
Jonah Goldberg wrote about this and the Iran quake some years ago. Not a new idea.
The reason so many people died in Haiti is because its people live in poorly built houses and have not benefited from development which brings with it cities and houses which can withstand earthquakes.
This is not necessarily true. Cities can not withstand earthquakes like this. Why was the Presidential Palace destroyed? Good construction saves lives, to a point. This was a big earthquake. It would have made very little difference. And yes, I am a civil engineer.
If a 7 hit New York, it too would be devastated. It is not designed for that kind of threat.
Your good point about development and safety ought to have been made without the emotion grabbing and totally bogus headline.
The Left blames anything that happens which is bad on either Global Warming or George W. Bush, sometimes both.
Of course all the dear poor people are happy when the free-spending Hollywood granolas are around because that means they might have enough money to eat that day.
These are the same people that think the world is overpopulated and we should somehow (kill people) reduce the worlds population. These are the same people that think abortions are okay. These are the same people that support the non-existent death panels in the health care legislation.
And we should listen to them why?
" Partisan hacks using this event to whip up some hate on one of their favorite nebulous targets of "environmentalists."
Youse people are simply too much, and such easy targets.
While we are on the topic of partisan hacks, and since you brought it up, do you mean Partisan Hacks like Danny Glover? It is about time for Harry Belafonte to chime in, and Jimmah Carter also.
The famous Ramzpaul said something very similar – I like his comparison to Japan.
Some NSFW language, however.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBC3wSgQZBc
Thanks for that This is the kind of sound reasoning that destroys superficial partisan tripe.
They ripped Robertson a new one for his comments, tactless and incompassionate as those comments were, but at least Robertson had a wee bit of fact on his side. The Haitians DID perform vodoun rituals before the slave rebellion to help succor success. Some Haitians and others still worship and honor the voudoun spirits. Still, Robertson was slammed, just as he was for his comments following hurricane Katrina.
Danny Glover has substituted God and Satan with the Leftist god entity Gaia. Glover's comment is no less tactless or insensitive, but it is less offensive (maybe not at all offensive!) to the Left because God and Satan are not mentioned. There's no "right" or "wrong" , no "sin" brought into the event- unless you count the existence of man and his act of industrial development as sin, which the Left does.
Oh yeah, and what about the mid-ocean ridge…? I suppose Global Warming is causing lava to expel from the earth 5 miles down because we drive fossil fuel powered vehicles! Perhaps there is a good reason that there has only been one trek to the bottom of the Marianas Trench (the deepest 'hole' on the planet) since the late 50's. They discovered new meanings to how life was, and is created with the absence of light. If further study was conducted, it could easily prove that with out a doubt "Global Climate Change" as it's being presented is a farce. But climate alarmists don't want to argue that point. They know they don't have a leg to stand on. We spend BILLIONS per year on NASA for them to just back the climate alarmists, and try to paint a picture of galactic chaos if we don't curb greenhouse gases on THIS planet…It's a freaking joke! Why, oh why have we not ventured back to the most uncharted parts of this planet to learn more? Why do we as a society care more about what we cannot reach (in space) then what gives us life and allows us to inhabit this little rock??? Guess that's not in the script huh?
Haitian cities are built like a house of cards. You're a civil engineer? You don't kow that there are essentially NO building codes in Haiti? Amazing.
You are an idiot, but on occasion even a blind hog will find an acorn. Your video was a gem. I loved it!
Sometimes, the truth is startling.
You are correct, but not having any buildings up to the equivalent of our California codes anywhere in Haiti (that I know of) just means MORE devastation when a big one hits.
Sloped armor doesn't repel all incoming shells, but it repels more than armor that isn't sloped, etc.
We get it. You're the sassy new media.
But this is a human tragedy of epic proportions. Show some decency and don't get cute with the headlines.
And just maybe… you could wait until the countless piles of human bodies have stopped burning before you try to shoehorn this event into a trivial ideological point.
Danny Glover (Great Hollywood Thinker) has already proclaimed the quake is punishment from Mother Earth/God for not passing climate change. Case closed! Knowledge has spoken!
Haiti is too big to fail!
We need a Haitian bailout!
Seriously, donate what you can. Please don't go through the WH website- cut out the middleman, donate directly to Red Cross or whoever you like.
The Episcopal Church's ERD (Episcopal Relief and Development) will not only give food, water, clothing and medical supplies, but they stay long AFTER everyone else has gone home in order to help rebuild schools, hospitals and lives. My diocese is devoting the next 2 Sundays as extra collection days to raise even more funds especially for Haiti. That's my shill for ERD.
There are still people who believe in "climate change"? How out of touch…
Well JPA, did we force Mr. Glover to make his idiotic statement? And if all conservatives are to be blamed for the rantings of Pat Robertson, how come Danny "I Love Hugo Chavez" Glover isn't representing all of the Liberal Left? And I also seem to recall the Liberal Left ridiculing GW Bush for sending aircraft carriers and other military assets to southeast Asia in response to the tsunami? Double standards anyone? If you'd like to blame anyone, blame the French. When the "gave" Haiti its independence, it demanded and received "reparations" of something like 85 million dollars (an astronomical amount at the time), most of which was provided by clear-cutting the island and shipping the wood to France to build their houses. But I'm sure you'll have no trouble blaming this all on the Evil Bush©. Do you expect rational people to swallow your pretzel logic?
Someone hurt your feelings a long time ago, didn't they? What else could explain your insistence on using your verbal fists instead of your logic wits?
Remember, when you don't know what you're talking about, it's best to keep quite about it rather than think it's a badge of honor.
Climate change causes the earth to cool and then warm. When it happens too quickly, the earth cracks like a big piece of glass. Glass is made from earth so you know I'm right about that. Because of our impure hearts, the crack ONLY happens where very poor people reside, killing them. I will follow up with charts later. It's time to file my grant papers and compost my grandmother.
This is a brilliant observation. Another case where we will be able to prove the bias in the media.
No doubt, earthquakes are strange creatures as to the characteristics of the motion. Example, sudden lurches in directions that cut against support structures, intensity of S wave and P wave, depth of epicenter and the country rock the structures are built on(effects of liquifaction).
However, we're talking small single/double story structures in Haiti. There is no wany this place should have sustained this much damage with proper constuction techniques. Death toll in Haiti should be a fraction of what it is.
Foreign governments have dumped $100's of millions of dollars/year into Haiti and they don't even have running water and ecectricity.
This damage and death is the result of years of a failed government run by Marxist leaning dictators that have been given a pass by the Communist soft underbelly of officials from the US, France, and the UN.
So I can assume you pretty much scanned the headline, made no effort to read the article, and had your opinions on the topic decided before you even began typing?
I'll indulge myself and assume so.
"they may be poor, but they seem happy and development might threaten this happiness"
Yeah, money does NOT buy happiness. But it does buy better quality food, medicine, sanitation, and shelter, not to mention plain old clean drinking water.
Interesting article on this and past quakes here:
http://www.sphere.com/world/article/three-million...
I'm beginning to think the climate change is cerebral for these leftists, happening only in the sphere between the ears.
This is tongue in cheek but I'll give it a go.
Since mankind has come on the planet they have consumed vast amounts of non-renewable energy sources; coal, oil, wood. These non-renewable energy sources have been converted from a solid state into a gaseous state. Because of this conversion the earth's crust has become lighter. Because the crust is lighter volcanic activity is increased; the crust can no longer hold it in. Further, since we have pumped so much oil out of the earth, we have imperiled the natural lubrication in the planet. This natural lubrication allowed the tectonic plates to slide more easily against one another. These effects have been accelerated by the policies of the Bush administration. We are doomed. Mankind must go.
Your reading comprehension needs a lot of help, you "special" child.
The catastrophe in Haiti was magnified by poverty and the resultant shoddy substandard building. No surprises here, Hait is the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere. And, no, the tree-huggers didn't cause Haiti's poverty: that is the product of two centuries' worth of scumbag kleptocratic dictators.
The point of the article, which despite being empblazoned in bliking red neon you managed to overlook, is that the only way *in the future* to prevent similar tragedies, given that we can't prevent earthquakes, is earthquake-resistant construction: but development, indeed anything that smacks of horrid prosperity, is something you Birkenstock-wearers have set yourselves squarely against.. Instead the fruit-flake-and-nut crew touts "sustainability" as their euphemism for what sane people call "grinding poverty."
Climate change causes earthquakes! If so then all the participants of the Copenhaugen (FIASCO) conference are guilty of mass murder. When can we start the trials!
Anybody repeating Ed Bagley's world view should also be tried for crimes against reality!
Danny Glover is an actor not a statesman, Did the kings of old take their advice from the court jesters? If so then nothing has changed.
Remember the GREENS (New slang for stupid) want "you" the little people to sacrafice for the greater (COLLECTIVE) good.
Maybe the rapid climate change caused their HEADS to crack.
FYI…the 1989 earthquake that hit San Francisco during the World Series was a 7 as well. 63 people died (40-something of whom were on a double-decker freeway at the time). While San Francisco suffered billions of dollars in property damage, it was nothing compared to the devastation in Haiti, where the fatalities are expected to be in the tens of thousands (if not more).
And I'm not really sure what's so bogus about the headline. Underdevelopment did cause much of the devastation you see in that photo. And if you think it's bogus to claim that environmentalists often stand in the way of development in poor nations, I would encourage you to watch Philem McAleer's documentary "Mine Your Own Business." It opened my eyes, and exposes the hypocrisy of environmentalists (who own half a million dollar boats) who have the gall to tell someone who lives in desparate poverty that he doesn't know the true meaning of the word "poor."
Oh, I believe in climate change. In fact, the only thing we know with certainty about the climate is that it changes. Has for billions of years before we showed up, and will keep a-changin' long after we're gone.
But the dupes who think humans have diddly-squat to do with it? They're way, way out of touch.
If they're so happy, why do so many of them build boats, sail past Cuba, and come to America for a better life? I'm wondering how many Cubans escape Cuba in the same way and float to Haiti for a better life?
No, you've got it all wrong. You see, by pumping tons and tons of CO2 into the atmosphere we increase the weight of the air, which puts pressure on the earth's crust….
You think I made that up? I didn't. I heard that from a Greenie who thus explained, with a straight face, the Indonesian tsunami.
Well JPA, did we force Mr. Glover to make his idiotic statement? And if all conservatives are to be blamed for the rantings of Pat Robertson, how come Danny "I Love Hugo Chavez" Glover isn't representing all of the Liberal Left? And I also seem to recall the Liberal Left ridiculing GW Bush for sending aircraft carriers and other military assets to southeast Asia in response to the tsunami? Double standards anyone? If you'd like to blame anyone, blame the French. When the "gave" Haiti its independence, it demanded and received "reparations" of something like 85 million dollars (an astronomical amount at the time), most of which was provided by clear-cutting the island and shipping the wood to France to build their houses. But I'm sure you'll have no trouble blaming this all on the Evil Bush©. Do you expect rational people to swallow your pretzel logic?
Ah, you must be talking to Danny Glover…
The best type of residence to have for earthquake situations are log cabins…The climate change carp is such a worn out record for me….but their agenda must be stopped…Who's going to replace Al Gore if and when he goes to hell? Obama's brother, in Kenya lives in an earthquake proof residence…a straw hut.
Environmentalism, or an easy way to keep poor people poor?
true story: I was recently standing in line at the DMV in NYC. They care about us so much here that to keep us occupied during all this line-waiting, they provided a screen which scrolls important messages, PSA's, and interesting trivia. I read a blurb about how environmentally conscious Cuba is. It said that Castro gave land to private citizens to farm, so long as they agreed to use only farming animals, and not powered equipment. While the implication was that this was such a great thing, my first thought was why would the leader of a country do anything to encourage citizens to be less productive with the same amount of work? Basically, these farmers would work just as long and hard with an ox, but produce less crop than those using tractors.
The enviro's want the whole world to revert to a "3rd world" level with a few of the elite running things from above the fray. How about the millions that they have been sickened due to the bans on DDT and the resulting plagues of malaria in Africa?http://online.wsj.com/article/SB12430328877904856...
I have work in building code administration and with building code policy for 24 years. I have heard people in the media blaming the death and destruction on the lack of building codes in Haiti. The truth is that there is no building code because of the poverty. It cost more money to build building to withstand these loads, money they don’t have. Even if they had an adequate code on the books they would not be able to enforce it because of the poverty and the ensuing corruption.
The U.S. has pumped huge am'ts of money in Haiti….We should have given them building plans, city lay outs and tools, and let them have their own DIY project. There was something on History channel about the huge Missouri earthquake, back in the 1800's, maybe 1850 or so, whereby the Mississippi River flowed backwards for three days. I think that major cities on that fault line are working on earthquake proofing major structures.
You'd like that wouldn't you?
Let us be nice and do the nice and respectful thing… not any more we don't.
You and your kind have no respect or decency, and you capitalize on any event to push your twisted agenda. At least what is being said here is truth. The global warming mass murderers will claim that they could have stopped this and it is the world causing this, when the problem is that if they had modern construction… which the Gaia worshipers fight against the earth quakes wouldn't have caused this much damage.
I'm not going to use the phrase gliobal warming or climate change ever again. I will now refer to Global Warming/Climate Change as Gaiaism, and I will refer to global warming supporters as Gaia Worshipers.
We are getting sick of it, too….Pray Al Gore out with Psalms Ch 91….this helps to stop liars and enemies
Nah, I'm just pointing out the absurd pretzel logic that leads to the author's ideologically-driven conclusion.
I hope the big, bad wolf doesn't show up at George's hut in Kenya.
"He'll huff, and he'll puff, and he'll blow the house down"……………………….
No, I read the article, which was really easy since it was so short and contained no references to anything factual. Just partisan blathering.
Sorry, but I don't see why this is being down dinged. The simple fact of the matter is that he is correct. I live in California, and I know enough about engineering and how Earthquakes work to know that regardless of how well or how dutifully you prepare, you aren't going to save someone walking in the street from having a construction pulley falling on their head if the quake is large enough.
And the point is valid. The Haitian disaster was directly caused by the earthquake, and all deaths as of yet are directly tied to it. But it alone was not responsible for what we saw in Port Au Prince. The disaster was magnified by poor planning, insecure housing, lack of sanity regarding urban development, and the corruption that radiates through much of Haitian governance, and it is the latter facts that will be the cause for most of the issues we are going to be seeing there. The Earthquake naturally didn't cause any of these issues, but it will reveal these things quite quickly. The simple fact is that we Californians and the Japanese get these things three times before lunch any given day, and a large minority of them are dangerous. But when that happens, we shrug and get to work, and within a month at most, the area is all but cleaned up.
New Orleans would be a more fitting comparison, because official incompetence and the breakdown of the thin veneer of law helped damage the city more than even geographic fate could, but this will make New Orleans look like a dog jumping in a pool, not only from the scale of the disaster, but from the sheer corruption and inefficiency that we are going to witness.
If we could just persuade the Greenies to hold a big demonstration and hold their breath until their faces turn purple….
Yes, mankind is certainly the plague of this planet, except for Liberals, they are all above us therefore deserve to have the Earth to themselves. Similar to the Mormons view of Heaven. I do consider myself a spiritual person, but the Bible was written by people that thought the Earth was flat after all, and Climate Alarmists aren't much different.
The truthful thing about all of this is that we just don't know for sure, one way or the other. For anyone to claim they have a definitive answer about climate, the earth, existence, etc..is just preposterous. One thing we do know for a fact is, that the Earth has been around for a very, very, very, very long time, and it's doubtful that we will ruin the Earth. The Earth will ruin us first…And there isn't a damn thing we will be able to do about it when and if that time comes…!
I still can't believe it, but I saw on TV…that NASA is going to be dismantled at the end of this year! Our Astronauts will use Russian Rockets, in Russia for their future flights…This is so unbelieveable…We are getting a new nasty situation every day! No more Cape Canaveral….In the past, no one believed the bible story that the world's biggest mountain could be cast into the sea and not be seen…We don't have enough carbon emissions, right now to fight the latest cold snap….let's go outside and Phart.
Poor Danny Glover! Is he really this stupid?!
Sure, begin with insults. That's par for the course from the right-wing echo chamber.
Um….no, the point of the article was not "future" development as you claim. The author pretty explicitly states that environmentalists are to blame for what already happened in Haiti.
"Environmentalists call this sustainable development but the only thing sustained is poverty. In the face of this massive earthquake it has meant visiting death and destruction on some of the poorest people on the planet."
Are you the "special" one? Hehe, nah, I shouldn't stoop your level.
The point of the article was a cheap attempt at using a tragedy to vilify a group of people the author doesn't like. And an absurd attempt at that.
Gee, all I see here are standard vapid talking points. Got anything of substance?
Right on. Want a new twist? The over-development of the earthquake was the cause.
We have to, as they own the Major News Networks….Thank God for this Big Govt site and other ones too.
Why is it that any critique of the stuff put out by BigGovernment or Rush Limbaugh or the like is always met with grouping the person into a "liberal" or "left-wing" group and then disparaging that group? It's a classic fallacy.
And btw, Ron Paul is my man and he is no "lefty." I like to visit here every now and then because it's a gold mine for pseudoconservatives tarring the image of real, traditional conservatism.
They had hundreds of years to better themselves and had no model. They came from Afica…no bldg model there…They were taken to Haiti, no bldg model there…I wouldn't work on re-building their stuff…Send them the tools and have Home Depot and others open a supply house kind of thing….We do really need to offer survival supplies and such. These people have been sitting on their hands for a long time….If they won't do it for themselves which is their habit….why should we? and Right On donate thru private sources… The U.S.A. gave them a billion 1,000,000,000 USD thru the years, and look where they are at….The other side of the island is self supportive it appears…I don't know why.
Not to be mean about this. The Haitians came from Africa, probably Ethiopia or Kenya…ok, Maybe some of them could consider to go back to their homeland. This would relieve the societal pressure there, and cause a bldg boom in Ethiopia, on the Ocean side…No Hurricane threats either.
This would be the type of nation our illustrious scum bag potus would love for us to become. God forbid others rise up, it is easier to tear us down. May they all rest in peace.
What is YOUR point?
'sustainable development'is just another warm & fuzzy word that hides the anti-western anti-U.S. plan. You fascists want to force everyone to live in tiny apts., walk to work, labor in the community gardens & ride bikes. What we want is irrelevant because you are doing it "for the children" Well PI$$ OFF! I'll live like I want and we will see in November how popular hopey-changey is.
I believe in climate change. It is plate techtonics that causes earthquakes and hurricanes. Not CO@. It is also under water volcanic activity that can create ocean warming. The sun creates warming.
Glover is ignorant of science. so is algore. Sock puppet of Convicted felon George Soros is yammering about muslims bringing greeen to the enviironment. CAGW did not trigger this earthquake.
A rather involuted argument for ' urbanisation and development'. The problem with Haiti is not lack of urbanisation but unregulated and unplanned urbanisation. The poorest who live in flaky shelters dont get get crushed under the rubble, but those who can afford a concrete shelter but are not gaurded by a responsible government and administartion do. More urbanisation and 'development' may not necessarily be the way out, but yes the right dedelopment and progess is. This is the point that is lost in the rather over-zealous assault on the 'development and the environment wallas;
Uh — me and my kind? Right winger here. Climate change "denier" too. Hell, I'm even a Ford Excursion owner.
Today the story is one of suffering and compassion for over 100,000 deaths. To pre-argue against an environmental point (that nobody credible has made) is to minimize this tragedy and make a mockery of the massive amount of suffering.
So… grow a conscience.
Actually, you have this backward. The US supported the Duvaliers during the cold war despite their corruption because they were anti-communist. Afterwards, in Sep, 91 we supported a military coup that removed a democratically elected president from power. Clinton supported putting him back in – Bush supported another military coup that removed him. The current president was popularly elected in 2006.
Note – I'm not saying that the Haitian govt isn't corrupt – it is. But the dictators were anything but Marxist – their anti-communism is the whole reason that the US backed them in the past.
[sarc]
Shameful ! Attacking Danny Glover is clearly the desperate tactic of a tea-bagging racist !
[/sarc]
If by "real, Traditional conservatism" you mean bat-shit crazy post John Birch Society, RonPaulians, then yes, I agree with you…..
Didn't I say that in the first post? The article is a trashy attempt at using a catastrophe to paint "environmentalists" as the problem.
Wow, conspiracy theory anyone?
Yep.
Just wait until Harry Belafonte shows up to make his idiotic remarks. We'll slap the slobber out of him with the same tea bag.
What – Rupert Murdoch is a leftist?
NASA isn't being dismantled. The shuttle program is coming to an end but there's a replacement vehicle called Orion in development to replace it. But that development is running behind schedule, so we'll use the Russian vehicles in the interim. NASA also is letting or investigating letting, contracts to commercial space operators like SpaceX – the guys who won the 10million prize for achieving privately funded space flight.
No no no not that….they need to be pharting right now to ward off the cold spell.
Cowboy, you have a chance to replace Jay Leno now….Gof for it! LOL
Yes, all those silly scientists tracking it around the world and looking at data. How dare they have an actual scientific opinion different from what the Saudis and big coal want them to have.
Seriously – what are your scientific credentials? All those scientists out there – all coming to the same conclusion that the climate is warming and that human forces are causing it. But you call them dupes so I guess we should listen to you instead of them.
I learned about global warming before I went to school….here in Cold WI….When the sun comes out, it is warmer..When it's low in the sky it is winter, hi in the sky it's warm summer. And they don't even teach that in schools…I'm still trying to figure out the moon….it doesn't warm us at nite….how cum? better ask algore to lie to me about that too…I'm sick of his usual lies…he needs some new ones.
Can someone tell me where the competent 'oversight' was, and WHO headed up the 'oversight', when tons of money was given to Haiti over the decades?
Where donations of our tax $$$ go ,in the name of 'benevolent' foreign aid, and also in the name of allowing certain Presidents (from both parties) to be puffed up and strut around the world stage, looking 'caring and good'….serious strings have to be attached, with a guarantee of accountability and transparency.
I nearly spit out my coffee when I heard Hillary Clinton say that she is putting, or has put, in place new methods to guarantee that we know how money like this is spent. Sounds like another financial miracle from the Cattle Futures Queen ! The 'Mid-Terms' can't get here fast enough!
Actually this is not in anyway similar to Mormons' view of Heaven. While superficial understanding of the doctrine might lead someone to believe this it is not really a fair comparison. Obviously you are free to disagree, but as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints I think I understand my view (and that of my church leaders) of Heaven a little better. This is really not the place to get into a religious discussion about my view though. I just get a little annoyed when people throw out things like this. And I am not just talking about when it is done about my faith either.
I agree in part with your other point though.
Not me, I'm blaming the French!
It occurs to me that tons and tons of CO2 putting pressure on the earth's crust is just another way of saying "The sky is falling…"
Actually all the scientists in the world (and in the U.S. for that matter) have not come to the same conclusion. Just a lot of the ones that are interested in being considered for Federal and certain companies' money have. Oh I know that some others have as well, but there are many scientists that disagree with this idea of climate change caused by humans or at least question the idea, but those scientists don't get the same amount of media attention. But most of the people that read this site already know this.
"they may be poor, but they seem happy and development might threaten this happiness"
And development might make them a whole lot happier. (And they accuse US of being unfeeling?)
Yes, Haitians were originally brought here from Africa, but it wasn't yesterday, for pete's sake. They kicked out the French and freed themselves from slavery over 200 years ago. They are no more African now that you are English or German or whatever your 200 year old ancestors were.
Great article Mr. McAleer! If societies and countries could build cities and homes etc, long term, benefits would be apparent in these regions. The "sustainable" operative word has been attached to only "green" products that don't give a shit how there built or constructed, they just use "sustainable" products. If the greenies were half interested in workmanship as they are in truely sustainable homes the impoverished countries would be better off.
Haitians were brought over by slave trafficking from West AFrica. Not related to in any way Ethiopians or Kenyans, about four thousand miles, farther apart than Boston to Los Angeles and as close culturally and linguistically as Spanairds are to Russians.
Haiti is a toxic mix of French colonial and post colonial goverance and West African witchcraft. Boiled down to a single bone to represent this combo, it's a society that culturally can dodge the concept of inidvidual responsibility – the State gifts to the people, and the religious message allows to blame others for your troubles instead of fixing them yourself. It's fertile ground for rampant corruption and lackidasical efforts. Manifests in such things as construction- skimping on cement, rebar, piss-poor foundations, no expense "wasted" on soil prep or site surveys for suitability for load bearing. San Franscisco had a comparable earthquake & less than 40 died – most on a span of one bridge. Actions have consequences. Haitia is poor due to corruption kleptocracies, so they COULD have built better, but the money went elsewhere.
I am really curious. Why is it that the people on this site despise environmentalists? Why isn't conservation a conservative value? How many of you would consider Teddy Roosevelt – the Republican president who started our national park system – a radical leftist?
I can understand if you all were to say that you think some environmentalists go too far or that you disagree with some of the policies that they recommend. But the virulent hatred and scorn everyone here expresses for all environmentalists is amazing. And I don't get it. Why the hatred?
Exactly. And/OR…will we now "annex" Haiti into the U.S. so the Marxists/Socialists/Communists have more votes?
Check out The People's Cube archives for the real skinny on man-made tectonic plate shift.
With all do respect nuttygirl…I would love to have some clarification on how you may know of my "superficial understanding" of the "doctrine" when you don't even know me! It just so happens that I live roughly 3 miles from BYU in Provo, UT. I know all too well about the Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial degrees of Heaven. I also understand the fear that LDS followers live if they do not follow the doctrine explicitly, that they risk not making it to their Celestial marriage where they will be god and goddesses themselves ruling over their own kingdom because everyone was sealed in the temple…It's all rubbish and for the book of Mormon to be considered 'divine truth', then the Bible must be discredited. So…My superficial understanding of the LDS faith, and their 'beliefs' of Heaven and the afterlife may be a little more educated than you first thought…?
You're assuming that Cuban farmers actually had some tractors to use.
I apologize for the rant, as I too agree that this is not the place for religious discussion. However, I don't take being told that I have a 'superficial understanding' of something lightly, that I clearly know I DO understand, probably more clearly than most! But, it's a good thing that you had the will to post what you did. Most Mormons fear discussion about their faith with anyone outside the church
The Global Warmists have no shame. They see their money drying up and will say and do anything to further the hoax.
What can I say about Danny Glover?
Luther Vandross had some killa' pipes.
The real conservationists are conservatives. The people who have really done the work for the animal kingdom are hunters and fishers. They have done more to protect wildlife and their habitat than any global warmist cultist have ever done.
If you actually believe that \”All those scientists out there [are] coming
to the same conclusion\” then you really are a dupe. The supposed
'consensus' that Gore and the carbon-trading racket want to sell you
consists of a cabal of roughly 60 academics who dominate the IPCC and have
colluded, successfully, to exclude the many, many dissenting scientists
and pretend they don't exist.
I hav nothing to say about the original article. So I apologize if this peeves the topic police. But….
I have been speaking harshly to the AP photo captions for three days now and your comment of this story being one of suffering and compassion and 'politicizing' the event made me wonder if the AP photo captions were total incompetence (as I was believing) or more 'political' than I had imagined.
I am sick of reading the word "Looter" in every photo of someone carrying out food from a destroyed store. These people are survivors of a major disaster. They are not 'looters' – I see none walking out with Plasma TVs and other electronics. They need food and water. They are trying to SURVIVE.
Today, the AP headlines are calling them 'scavengers'. Really? Why looters and scavengers and not survivors and victims of this major disaster? I'm not trying to read anything political into this – it just infuriated me every time I read it.
They are already detaining people for taking the food that is spoiling out of the destroyed markets. Really? Why?
Thought-criminal Redfield:
Report directly to the bus station for reassignment to the People's Beet Farm.
Indulging in surveying sites like this is not the type of conduct of a true prog.
Reform, or be denounced!
Jesus Pete. Can't you read?
I am conservative and I don't have a virulent hatred for environmentalists. But I think perhaps part of the answer to your question is that the 'policies they recommend' are the problem. They are not just 'recommending' – they are passing, regulating and enforcing. To the detriment of our country and our economy.
The 'chain-myself-to-a-tree-person" and the "GW Political Machine" are two different animals that have merged into one very dangerous weapon against a free enterprise country and threatens liberty, economy and the republic as a whole.
I will bite, and attempt to answer your question.
I despise Teddy Roosevelt. He was a progressive, eliteist, snob. That being duly noted, I'll take it one step further. I can only comment on myself. I have a unique perspective, based upon my life's business experiences. Rancher, cattleman; farmer; the timber business and the coal business; the oil and gas business. I have one other skill set: military and war.
That being duly noted, I am an environmentalist first and foremost. I do not need some liberal fascist militant; some trust fund baby, some retard from the Sierra Club, or the Nature Conservancy dictating terms and conditions to me. They do not have a clue.
Those people can kiss my ass.
Enviromentalists are the folks who get blisters on their hands from stirring up ridiculous nonsense. I agree that pollution is an issue, but to take universal/cosmic events and twist them to fit their mantra is bizarre. Simply put; leave it better than you found it. Just ask a boy scout.
What precisely don't you get about crappy housing along w/ a throughly primitive infrastructure brought to the Haitiens courtesy of their dictatorial governing forces having EVERYTHING to do w/the absolutely catastrophic impact this earthquake has wrought? Are you able to comprehend the difference between a serious fall off a high speed motorcycle while driving naked as opposed to wearing leather (as a second skin) and a sturdy helmet? Or is this too much to take in by a brain enfeebled by a life time of blaming whatever you don't do for yourself on 'The Environment' or "Wall Street" which are (of course!) screwed up by people more efficacious than yourself?
HOw much money does it take to erradicate poverty? The quake was a disaster, but those who lives are effected will be in the same state that they were in even with massive amount of aid,
of which these "trashy"folks you mention are the ones who will out give and out work the others 10-1 "Teach a man to fish you feed for life time" comes to mind. Can you please have a decent dialogue without the name calling. JPA you have had no substance to the conversation. The article was an attempt to explain that some of the past problems are a direct result of one group having to much power and PEOPLE are not as important as their agenda.
I think in private he's probably even stupider.
Astounding – or maybe not – that NYC gov't would fall for such naked Castro propaganda. The real reason for this "green" initiative is that Cuba doesn't have enough fuel to keep its tractors running (Chavez has cut way, way back on his free oil since his own production is collapsing).
Because "conservationist" in the proud sense my rancher/hunter/fisherman grandfather understood it means nothing resembling the radical left-wing human-hating, capitalism-hating Luddites who call themselves "environmentalists." Greenpeace and Earth First are a bunch of raving lunatics, and if you can't see that then I'm sorry for you.
Much of the 'environmental' movement are just post-91 rebranded communists: they call themselves Green because they're too yellow to admit they're Reds. The rest are silly, mush-for-brains adolescents (of all ages) with little grip on reality- e.g. Ed Begley's "development would ruin third-world happiness." I for one have no intention of allowing the Berkeley Birkenstock brigade to regulate and tax the very air I breathe.
Also- the old conservationists, unlike today's Greenies, weren't shameless LIARS and fearmongers.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with conservation. There's nothing wrong with recycling or wanting to keep the earth as clean as possible for future generations to enjoy. The problem with modern-day environmentalists is that many of them are hypocrites who feel it necessary to tell others how we must live (while changing nothing about their own lifestyles) and if they can't convince us through the power of persuasion, they'll force it upon us through legislation. Secondly, their actions – however well intentioned – have caused the deaths of millions of people. One need look no further than the ban on DDT as an example of the devastation that well-meaning yet wrong-headed environmental activists can have on people, especially those in poor nations.
CON'T
But for me personally, I get irritated when an environmentalist from a developed, wealthy nation such as the U.S. preaches about the "simplicity" of "going green" or being "carbon neutral." They "experiment" with this idea by ditching their car for a bicycle, by purchasing clothing from second-hand stores, by shopping for local produce with cloth bags, and by drying their t-shirts on a clothesline instead of in a dryer. They tell people it's hard, but somehow freeing. Then after a few months they are free to change back to their previous lifestyle if they choose. What they miss is that millions of people (like those in Haiti) would do just about anything to have even half of the lifestyle that we do. They think a life of living without electricity or getting water from a well is "simple" but the reality is that it's hell for many.
CON'T
I'm sure everything I've written here has you rolling your eyes and you'll use this as an example of my hateful conservative rage. But I think at the core of it is that environmentalists today think it's okay (and even their duty) to tell others how to live. And if you choose not to live according to their rules, you somehow don't care about the environment or you're a flat-earther or you're just plain stupid. Therefore you must be forced to accept their rules under penalty of law. Conservatives generally don't like to be told how to live. We believe in the individual and in freedom. If someone wants to drive a hybrid, eat organic, and keep your house at 81 degrees, that's great! I won't stop you. But allow me to drive my Ford F150 pickup to get a the occasional fast-food burger to eat in my comfortable 73 degree home without calling me a murderer of the planet or trying to legislate my choices away.
This horrific disaster is something that all nations have to look forward to if the Greens get their way. With the "Environment Friendly" proposals and regulations, there will be a reduction in industrialization and modernization across the board. With less industrialized societies, each disaster that happens will be worse, because the most modern methods will not be allowed to be used.
Pardon me, but I think your 'civil engineer' status is BS. Frank Lloyd Wright's Imperial Hotel in Japan remained standing during the 1923 earthquake (8.5) – in fact, the building withstood an earlier earthquake during it's construction. The Great Kanto quake destroyed much of Tokyo but not this amazing building. Haiti cannot withstand ordinary conditions never mind earthquakes for the exact same reason other dictatorships cannot – humanity counts for nothing more than slaves to the dictatorial regimes. The monstrosity of a Presidential Palace was also built like crap .. a vulgarian showplace not unlike Saddam Hussein's crapola 'palaces' .. or H. Hefner's 'mansion'. NY was hit in 2001 by a devastating unnatural act of war. NYC's highly sophisticated civil/social infrastructure responded in a well coordinated and seriously responsible way which saved untold lives. Our larger social structure did the same. All societies are not created equally. Now return to 'civil engineering' that birdhouse for your wife.
Obama's plans – fully realized – would turn the USA into Haiti. This won't happen because we will fight not to allow it to happen.
I don't know anything about Cuban farmers. Castro was the one who put that stipulation on the deal. If Cuban farmers had no access to tractors, he wouldn't have needed to deny them the chance to use them.
And it really disturbed me how it said that Castro himself gave the land to the people, as though he owns the country – which I suppose is the nature of a dictatorship. I had to read the scroll the second time around to make sure I wasn't reading it wrong. Yes, my New York City tax dollars at work
Yes, I'm not quite sure why Pat Robertson speaks on days of disaster, hasn't his network figured that out yet.
OK, Santeria is bad…I agree. Seriously, if you want to debate that, save it for another time. As for the former
Haitian official saying they made a pact w/the devil 'USA'. Uh, sir, that would be a pact made with devilish
Democrats and liberals, as well as Republicans, who wished to help your nation for decades. Fact is Haiti
has been influenced by nations all over the world, the least of which is the USA.
Danny Glover quiet.
Where is your buddy Hugo Chaves and his billions? Haiti is down the street from him.
Castro, Mikey Moore, your pal is slow to offer help, and it's not that much.
Puerto Rico, you told the Navy to leave, so where's your help for Haiti?
Bad, terrible things do happen. Anytime, anywhere………
Agreed, even a brocken clock is right twice a day
And sometimesthe TRUTH does actually hurt
Earthquakes Don’t Kill Haitians – Underdevelopment Does by Phelim McAleer: Another great article:
I'm 100 % certain that the Obama "CHICAGO MOB" will blame this on the warming trend! Dam the torpedoes!
It seems that America could have saved a lot of money by long ago helping this government out of poverty! Although it may have been unfruitful, but it still may have helped these people get on their feet!
The earth- billions of years
Man- a few houndred thousands' of years
How many ICE/HEAT "waves"
And we are to blame?
Get a LIFE
Egads!
"Orion"?
That's the theoritical, nuclear pulse "rocket" that tosses small nukes under the bang plate and blows it's self into space. And they plan to snarf the name for something else?
I would belive you if:
You could put together a sentanceand they were not sitting on gold
Ie. Beach's in the Carabian "?"
AL HAIL GAIA
/sarc
Money may not buy happyness, but it does buy dinner. Which a lot of them are short of.
Did you notice how many flat bricks were laying around, without any mortar to be seen?
THen why do they all consider then self's AFRICAN- ….
Most of the people who call themselves "conservationists" are suckers being fleeced by fast talking con artists. (The suckers being what I call "condo-conservationists".) They don't have the least idea of nature or life in the wild.
Trap ban in Washington State
Beaver trapping ban in Pennsylvania
Deer hunting bans on the East coast
(sheesh, how many other half witted laws backfired, causing enormous damage?)
We give
who gives a SHIT where the $$$ goes
/sarc
Some, but not all, enviros are Ghia worshippers. They actually see man as a cancer and the Earth would be better rid of us.
And they are ludicrous ludite lights. They are all about alternative fuels, for example, but just try building a wind farm near a Kennedy or a solar farm in the desert, let alone a nuclear power plant anywhere. They're all about cleaner fossil fuels, but now that we have them and the means of getting at them, that's a no-go, too.
They are not really about nature. They are about Hell on Earth.
So you are an environmentalist Libertarian?
I agree!, In fact I am totally surprised that they haven't blamed it on Bush
A grammar flame, containing both spelling and grammar errors?
What you say about New York is probably true but places like L.A. and areas in Japan would survive quite fine. How do I know I have been through a couple of 7 quakes. One in northern Japan at a USAF base in the early 70's and one in the greater L.A region. So building to good earthquake standards would have made a difference. While you may indeed have a CE degree you evidently don't specialize in this area.
I think these left-wing spammers agenda is to try and rattle us,
did you notice they mainly spam the "Global Warming" posts or the
"Healthcare" posts..Their arrogance is almost on par with Obamas.
I've already been outside, and inside, doing my part at least 4 times today =)
I may even drive home with my window down later and breathe…That'll show em'! LOL
Certainly the building poor quality is huge factor in the loss of life. But the epicenter of the San Francisco quake wasn't in downtown SF, but in an unpopulated area of the Santa Cruz mountains. This quake's epicenter was RIGHT under the city and apparently comparatively close to the surface. This significantly increased the damage to the city.
Obviously.
I'm sorry, but his is what happens when people permit crooked government officials to control their lives. Can someone send the obama's down there to live,,,,please? This is their kind of governmental environment and would make sure everyone got their piece of the pie. Collective living is common for Africans,,,,,,not Americans.
I will get a life… but it will be a much better life for all concerned if global warming is curbed.
CO2 and Methane = greenhouse gasses FACT – they absorb certain longwave radiation that is emmited by the Earth – FACT – Increases in these will trap more radiation increasing heat – FACT
As far as science can produce facts these are about as good as it gets, Do you want to deny gravity – it exists but no one can explain how it works yet.
Milankovitch cycles operate on three timescales – 100,000 years, 41,000 years and 21,000 years (approximatley) none of these or sunspots explain current changes in climate. Industrial output of CO2 etc does fit the trend though…..
This artical was written to discourage conservatives from contributing to the relief effort. Don't buy into it. It is an attemtp to blame the victims and anger the right with partisan nonsense. Climate change debates will still be here after we have saved as many victims as can be saved. Haitians need to feel the full weight of American power, American generosity and American compassion.
The don't. They consider themselves Haitian… you consider them African because of the color of their skin.
Thanks for sharing mr. keeper. It's good that everyone gets to see the kind of person you are. There is nothing any flamming lib could say about you or name they could call you that could do more damage than your own words.
This a a ridiculous comparison. The epicenter of the 1989 quake that killed all those people on the bay bridge was 100 miles south near Santa Cruz…. in an unpopulated area. And as all earthquake blogger experts know, quakes dispate over distance. The epicenter of the Haiti quake was directly below 2 million people. If a 7.0 quake directly hits any major city in the U.S., the damage will be catostrapic.
Remember that it is not what you know, it is what you know that ain't so…
"As the millionaire Hollywood actor Ed Begley Jr. says they may be poor, but they seem happy …"
And as Obama said, "Why can't I just eat my waffle?"
The hard core environmentalists (which is pretty much mainstream, at this point) today are breathing a collective sigh of relief for the massive number of deaths in Haiti. Their agenda for population control as well as possible new beach views for their 8th world vacation condos have been simultaneously realized. It's a happier naturo vacation w/out so many pesky starving people spoiling the view.
Lucky, here boy…. you stay just as classy as you are now. You are the perfect spokes model for the right.
Not sure how you blame environmentalists for this disaster… but do go on. This should be facinating and informative. And unless I miss my guess, it will say far more about you than environmentalists.
So rage on my brother…
In the 1950s our hiways looked like landfills. I remember the short drive between St. Joe and KC was covered with litter. There was a compaign that asked people to properly dispose of their trash and it went nowhere. The following year they began handing out $25 tickets and the highways cleaned up like magic.
The only way society works for all of us is to enforce the rules.
Very well said. Do you rescue princesses too? I mean, when you are not practicing military war, cattle, oil, coal, gas and timber environmentalism.
This may be my favorite post of all time… Please don't take it down. Here, I better save it:
Cowboy Logic says:
"I despise Teddy Roosevelt. He was a progressive, eliteist, snob. That being duly noted, I'll take it one step further. I can only comment on myself. I have a unique perspective, based upon my life's business experiences. Rancher, cattleman; farmer; the timber business and the coal business; the oil and gas business. I have one other skill set: military and war. That being duly noted, I am an environmentalist first and foremost. I do not need some liberal fascist militant; some trust fund baby, some retard from the Sierra Club, or the Nature Conservancy dictating terms and conditions to me. They do not have a clue. Those people can kiss my ass."
not a dime for murderous black inferiors
Good. Anything to please and satisfy you. Asshole.
[...] some of the poorest people on the planet. Shame on environmentalists, and shame on Ed Begley Jr. Earthquakes Don’t Kill Haitians – Underdevelopment Does – Big Government Reply With Quote + Reply to Thread « Previous Thread [...]
To connect the atmospheric temperature with the occurrence of an earthquake is complete lunacy….though they kept completely silent during the early winter didnt they …….a good part of the World was having some of the coldest winters on record.
If people cant see through the absurdity of this global warming false flag crisis by now…..then I guess the rest of us are paying the price for World mass idiocy.
Good stuff. Thanks for the information.
Read up on DDT before commenting on it. I'm no more a "earther" than most that write on this but DDT is one wicked bug spray. It's not what it can do NOW for everyone but it's lingering effects years after it's use that's the problem.
Well said…
"Ed Begley Jr. says they may be poor, but they seem happy and development might threaten this happiness."
The happy darkies on the plantation. Potential Democrats.
I cannot speak for Lucky, and I agree that your average Haitian would get (rightfully) outraged about telling them to "go back home to Africa", I must note that Haiti has historically been a focal point of Africanist political movements, more than a few of which actually have advocated "'returning' to the 'homeland.'" But, on the whole, you are correct.
"I despise Teddy Roosevelt. He was a progressive, eliteist, snob."
Alright, you have a right to your opinion, but I must ask, with all due honesty, why? The man certainly wasn't perfect, but in many, MANY ways, he was ahead of his time (conservation, the danger of radical conservationists- the man was the rival of John Muir, after all- the threats of the "trusts", and PARTICULARLY the risk posed by the Germans when nobody wanted to pay attention). He deserves criticism, but I don't see how he was as bad as you seem to think.
Yes, but what about the NOT-so-murderous "niggers?" And those who actually try to CLEAN UP the rotten mess in Port-Au-Prince? Do they deserve to die as well, fool?
Agreed. But that should not prevent us from giving aid to the Haitians who actually DESERVE it (unfortunately, some of those "murderous inferiors"- most of whom are black, but more than a few are certainly NOT- will doubtless filch out of the aid package, but that can hardly be avoided, and should it prevent us from giving it to those who genuinely deserve it?).
I should have added a caveat or disclaimer above.
I admired him from the standpoint of conservation and environmentalism. His work was good in that regard, and stands to this day.
He was the original "trust buster". He was thoroughly anti-business. I detest that.
My question is this WHERE is the Police or they President or do they even have one????? To Help on their own people????
You are so right where did all that money go??? It had to go in somebody pocket but I like your story
True, I agree. It was a VERY dangerous precedent. Though to be fair, the trusts themselves were hardly angelic.
Ooops… better add literary critic to your repertoire.
Nice.
Nope.
Your the critic.
I'm just an uneducated high school dropout who ended up being a successful businessman.
They made money.
Keeping this civil – I hope – can you tell me how you define environmentalism – I mean your kind? What actions do you think the government should take to protect the environment, if any?
Thanks – I am not trolling here – trying to understand is all. I live in a pretty rural area but one that has been hurt by the pollution put out by some local plants. The biggest offender is actually a French plant that is operating here in a way they'd never be allowed to in their own country. I'd like to see our state crack down on them, but the question of jobs always comes up. And justifiably so since our area has lost a lot of jobs in recent decades as manufacturing moved overseas.
Anyway – looking to see if there's any common ground, I guess.
Yes, but by preventing competition – not enhancing it. It's always a balancing act and the trick is to try to maintain the level playing field. You can't lean too far to unions or the business will be hurt. But if you have no union strength at all, then the working class is hurt. And if the working class is too disadvantaged, then it hurts the whole country by preventing the expansion of the middle class. I always think of Henry Ford – who raised his workers wages so that they would be able to buy the cars they were making.
No, I'm not rolling my eyes. I disagree with you on several points, but also agree on several others. I drive a Prius because I love the engineering accomplishment and get a kick out of handing less money over to the Saudis. But I don't have teenagers to drive around with 9 milllion pounds of stuff and I don't have a farm or need to haul hay. Bottom line in my opinion is to use the right tool for the job. And I do think that people who use huge cars to commute in the city are a little foolish. They're hard to park and why pay more for gas than you have to? But if that's their choice, then it's their choice. I don't feel I have the right to tell others how to live.
CON'T
I haven't seen as much evidence as you apparently have of environmenalists wanting others to stay poor. And anyone who would say that others are happy in their poverty is an idiot. Period. I do see advantages to trying to help places like Haiti develop in a sustainable way. Apparently, they have cut down the trees on their island so much that landslides have become a huge problem. But they have to cook their food somehow and charcoal is their own way to do it. It seems like if someone had a way to get them more sustainable energy supply, that would be worth supporting.
But they made money by stifling competition, not enhancing it. The trick as I see it is to maintain a balance between interests. If you lean too far toward labor, then business is hurt and can't compete. If you have no labor strength, however, then the workers are disadvantaged and the middle class doesn't expand. I speak as someone who has seen both extremes close up. In France, where they were striking because they wanted to work fewer hours for the same pay and somehow thought the companies could do that and stay in business. On the other side in El Salvador, the super rich kept getting richer by owning the land and the businesses, but passed practically none of it to the workers. Result was no middle class to speak of, a stagnant economy because of it and ultimately, a bloody period of revolution.
Wrong wrong wrong. The scientists who agree that warming is happening and it affected by human activity come from all over the world and there are far far more than 60 of them. A study by the U of Illinois of earth scientists showed that 97% of them believe that global warming is happening and is caused by humans. Even some major US corporations – hardly leftist shills – agree with this and have broken with the Chamber of Commerce because of it.
Ruper Mudocch owns Newscorp but he now owns Time Inc., Condé Nast Publications Inc., Hearst Corp., and Meredith Corp! When did that happen?
Oh wait you were knee jerk reacting without thought. Sorry.
Does "all those" include Roger Pielke Sr and the host of actual PHD in climate and atmospheric studies who indeed are very much "peer reviewed scientists" who constantly correct GISS, CRU and NCDC in this matter or merely the civil servants Al Gore and the IPCC often cite? Maybe Jones, Mann, Briffa and the rest of that little club constitute I'd be interested in reading your reply.
Well said! As someone having worked with those in the concrete industry, I can guarantee you there are so many points being missed by those commenting in regard to construction as to render the whole thing a waste of characters. Forget not what happened in the 1976 Tangshan earthquake and why the death toll was last confirmed as 242,419. Its always about the structures around you in an earthquake.
I'll second that sentiment for Canada also. Duck's Unlimited and the Canadian Wildlife Federation have done more for Canada's wetlands and migration routes than all the protesting enviro-celebrities this country of mine has ever birthed or had emigrate to. Some people talk with religious fervor about the environment and some actually do something about it with both their incomes and bare hands.
There's always those billions POTUS has already earmarked for combating that moving target formerly known as global warming.
Poor but they seem happy? He seriously did not say such an inane thing.
If you have some climate science to present you should publish in in scientific journals and see if it can stand up to scrutiny. Until then, you are just another angry blogger with an uninformed opinion.
But thanks for sharing…
Pielke doesn't deny that climate change is occurring or even that man is causing it. He objects to the way certain data is presented by the IPCC.
Why don't you list five other climate scientists who agree with him?
Ooooooooh- the Appeal to Authority!
You do realize that's a fallacy, don't you?
One only needs to be reasonably scientifically literate to be able to discern, for oneself (amazing concept to you), that the climate Team behind the IPCC are liars, data-fudgers and frauds. In light of what we know about the Cabal's having hijacked, suborned and subverted peer review, I do find it amusing that you would dredge up that favorite climateprogress phrase, "scientific journals." I could refer you to some, if you're interested. But of course you aren't.
FACT: CO2 and methane don't exist in remotely sufficient concentrations to trap enough IR to account for the claimed "warming" (if it exists at all). The Warmists themselves admit that their hypothesis depends on water vapor, the dominant greenhouse gas- and yet the critical assumption, that H2O serves as a *positive* feedback, is utterly unsupported by the evidence. In fact all indications are that the feedback is negative, like we always thought.
The FACT is that the current warming is neither unprecedented nor outside the range of natural variability- and you can't disprove that with any kitchen-table experiment.
You mean its supposed thi8nning effect on bird eggs? Rubbish. Rachel Carson lied.
Environmentalism thrives on lies and scaremongering.
You're trying to link litter prevention to environmentalism?
Puh-leeez.
Nonsense. The trusts were bad because they were monopolies- the antithesis of free markets, and an evil denounced by every classical economist right down to Friedman. The harmed other, possibly more efficient, bunesses, and consumers (a monopoly will necessarily offer less choice at higher prices).
But by the same token labor monopolies (unions) are equally bad. They are not the antithesis of the trusts, but their analogue. If you have no union strength at all, the populace (including the so-called "working class") will benefit.
What fallacy"? We aren't talking scientific logic here. We are talking about your opinion that climate scientists are lying to us because you can't believe that man could possibly change the environment. Even though it was man who polluted entire cities and created rivers that caught on fire.
You've declared IPCC scientists and analysts as liars. Where is the logic in that.? If you had done some science and refuted their conclusions at least we could take you seriously. But as it is, you are just making noise. But this is a blog and that is your right. You just don't have any right to be taken seriously…. and kind of fun to mock.
That's where they were dumping the litter… in the environment. In the rivers, in the air, on our streets, burying it in landfills that were leeching into underground water, and polluting our air with SO2, CO2, particulate and a thousand other things that we shouldn't be breathing.
You don't bathe in your toilet and you don't crap in you tube.
\”We are talking about your opinion that climate scientists are lying to us
because you can't believe that man could possibly change the environment\”
No, it's because there is solid evidence that they are liars. You know,
part of my day job is dissecting scientific \”expert\” witnersses, many of
whom are paid professional liars. I'm familiar with the breed. And, no,
one doesn't have to be oneself a scientist to be aware that a scientist
who deletes inconvenient data, and makes up fictitious data more to his
taste, is faking it.
If you have no union strength the populace will benefit. How? That's a flat statement, but do you have any evidence for it? If all the power is on one side of the equation, how does that benefit those on the other side?
I think organizations act in their own self interest. That includes corporations, who will minimize outlay on workers (benefits, safety, et. al) to maximize shareholder value. And that's fine, as long as there's some check on them. And I believe it goes the other way. When unions become too large and/or too concentrated, then business suffers. The answer to that isn't to remove unions from the equation, it's too have competition among them – exactly as we need competition in business.
Do you have any evidence to support those statements? The damage done by DDT in the wild is pretty thoroughly documented. USDA scientists had called for banning it way back in 1947, 15 years before Silent Spring was published. Also, mosquitos were becoming immune to it — 19 species of mosquitos were immune by the time the US banned its use.
I don't understand your comment. Gregory said that "they" own the Major News Networks. I simply pointed out that the news network with the highest ratings – the most watched – is owned by Rupert Murdoch and he is certainly not on the left. Why is that knee jerk reacting?
What "evidence" that the are lying? Do you mean climategate? That happened in November and you have been whining about climate change on this blog for at least 35 weeks. So there must be some other solid evidence that scientists are lying to us.
In what kind of job do you "dissect" scientific witnesses. It's already clear to me you have no science background. And if you are a lawyer calling anyone a liar that is rich.
Not sure how they named it – this is from the NASA website: "NASA, Alliant Techsystems and Lockheed Martin performed a ground test of a full-scale attitude control motor for the launch abort system of the Orion crew exploration vehicle. "
Does global warming theory account for water vapor? How do we do it?
Can we increase the water vapor in the atmosphere? How do climate scientists deal with water vapor in climate models?
I would say that the lunatic fringe of environmentalists who see man as a cancer on the Earth are pretty few. But any lunatic fringe is noisy and gets lots of attention. And I completely agree with you about the Kennedy opposition to the wind farm off shore. Pure, unadulterated "not in my backyard" selfishness.
If you deny scientific data about historical temperatures, how do you know what the range of "natural variability" really is. What is a kitchen table experiment? And what does it have to do with climate change theory?
Who told you oxygen is a "positive feedback"?
Really Boh, if you are going to spray crap around, you should be prepared to defend it.
\”and polluting our air with SO2, CO2, particulate and a thousand other
things that we shouldn't be breathing.\”
We shouldn't be breathing CO2???????
BWAHAHAHAHAHAAA!
Jesus Christ, you're an ignoramus!
I was referring to the solid matter that we breath in from burning fossils… not CO2.
\”What \”evidence\” that the are lying? Do you mean climategate? That
happened in November and you have been whining about climate change on
this blog for at least 35 weeks. So there must be some other solid
evidence that scientists are lying to us.\”
Wait. Waittaminute. Seriously- You mean that you have been completely,
totally unaware of the issue of GISS and NOAA cooking the temperature
data? That goes back a long, long way. And of course Mann's hockey-stick
fraud was exposed back in '03.
The Climategate files didn't reveal so much as they confirmed- although I
don't think anyone quite expected how far the Team had gone to hijack the
review and publication process.
You are going to be disappointed when this climategate turns into nothing.
The other issues are only in the minds of deniers, and the hockey stick "controversy" was debunked.
\” Who told you oxygen is a \”positive feedback\”?
>
> Really Boh, if you are going to spray crap around, you should be
> prepared to
> defend it.\”
BWAHAHAHAHAHA!
H20 is *water*, dear boy. Oxygen is O2. Yet you presume to talk about
science!! If I were you, I'd stop digging, fast.
\”If you deny scientific data about historical temperatures\”
That's rather the point- the warm-mongers have been systematically
denying, or rather altering, historical temperatures. For one quick
example, did you know that GISS' US annual mean temperature anomaly for
2006 increased by nearly two-tenths of a degree…. in late 2009?
Do you have the slightest clue as to how average surface-station
temperatures are created? No, of course not- you just assume they come
from \”scientists\” doing sciencey things with scientifically hyperaccurate
high-tech scientific instruments, and then that data is faithfully plotted
and released ….. Oh, if only you knew!
Perhaps you might want to check out surfacestations.org to get a glimpse
of the truth- and this is just the raw-data collection stage. Then we can
talk about how the raw data is \”corrected\” and \”homogenized.\” The last
doomsday temp announcement from Hansen was a true landmark- this time GISS
managed to release a figure based on NOT ONE actual temperature station.
It was a 100% virtual temperature.
These much ballyhoo'd temperature numbers are like sausages- once you see
howw they're made, you'll likely never swallow another.
And, exactly how many of /your/ "scientists" have actual degrees in relevant fields?
Quakes and log cabins? Only if properly built and spiked. I've seen some that are death traps.
The original "hockey stick" data from 1998 has been reproduced with proxy temperature studies from tree rings, stalagmites, bore holes and ice core data. All of it has confirmed the original conclusion: that the 20th century is the warmest in the last 1000 years and warming in the last 30 years has been the most dramatic every recorded.
The process of data collection and analysis is conducted under peer review. If there is any nonsense going on it will be exposed soon enough. Just not by right wing bloggers.
\”The process of data collection and analysis is conducted under peer
review\”
Jesus, you're gullible.
The police are digging out their own families. Their President can only organize people who do things, and they have personal problems. That's ignoring the poverty and corruption of the nation.
\”The process of data collection and analysis is conducted under peer
review\”
Lifted that straight off the realclimate website, did you? Apparently
you're not aware that
1) realclimate lies, and misstates the science as a metter of course (It's
a Fenton Communications operation, fer chrissake!)
2) That particular statement is an out-and-out lie. The ice-core series,
lakebed sediments, ice-rafted debris, all the proxy series derived from
physical processes tell us what we've already known: the Roman Warm
followed by col Dark Ages followd by the MWP and the LIA. ONLY Mann's
faked and Briffa's suspect tree-ring series produce the \”hockey-stick'_
except even they don't have the blade part- the sharp late-C20 increase
was tacked on!. (The divergence was the \”decline\” they tal;ked about
\”hiding.\”
You're just repeating the talking points of the propaganda operation- you
don't know shit about science yourself. You can't even tell oxygen from
water! If I were you I'd go hug a tree (except you ,ight freeze to it in
this weather).
Here is a list of over 2000 published scientists with their academic qualifications, affiliations and areas of climate research. It also list the year they received their phd.
http://www.eecg.utoronto.ca/~prall/climate/climat...
Real climate lies? Does Glenn Beck know about this?
No, the process of peer review with regard to climate discredited itself,
by being turned into a club circlejerk by Jones, Mann & Co.
AGW will be and in fact is being outed- by the guys doing the science.
Apparently you aren't aware, however, that the leading skeptics ('deniers'
is a sleazy insult) are also among the leading climate scientists- many
of whom were members of the IPCC before they were forced out by the Cabal.
You don't even know who realclimate.org is, do you?
Oh, this just in:
World Misled Over Himalayan Glacier Meltdown
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment...
Climate change deniers are not skeptics. A skeptic's mind can be changed by empirical evidence. I'm a skeptic.
I get a lot of denier links that refer me to UK publications… I see a trend.
Ok, I read the story. Sounds like someone at IPCC got caught speeding on a prediction and now must walk it back. It happens when you try and predict exact consequences of climate change and put a timetable on it.
If that prediction doesn't come true then they need to admit they are wrong, and if this article can believed they are prepared to do just that. Doesn't mean climate change is not occurring.
Yep, Schmidt, Mann, Steing, all the conspiritors.
Now, do you know who owns and runs the site?
Oh, my God. You're trying to claim the *Times* isn't pro-Warmist???? In
any event, it's the IPCC itself which is retracting (over the protests of
its chairman Pachauri, who's a whole story in his own right) Perhaps you
might want to *read* the article?
It also reveals that the \”peer-reviewed science\” they rlied on was a WWF
press release. Par for the course. The IPCC is a political operation,
not a scientific one.
Was it you that said you spend your days "dissecting" scientists because they lie? Explain that for me.
Betsy Ensley and her media consulting company. But she is not a scientist and has no direct control over content. I assume that would be Gavin Schmidt but I don't know that for sure.
If you mean the NY Times, they have not fallen prey to denier arguments. Not like the right wing UK and Aussie media. Those guys are total deniers and will go to the grave denying the science.
It's appears to be some kind of disorder… a lost sense of reality. From what I've seen on righty blogs there is no cure. You stay this way until you die.
I know you don't like being called a denier, but the definition fits you like a glove:
Denialism is choosing to deny reality as a way to avoid an uncomfortable truth:[1] "[it] is the refusal to accept an empirically verifiable reality. It is an essentially irrational action that withholds validation of a historical experience or event.
Check out thunderf00t on youtube. You won't like him a bit, but he will make you understand the total lack of respect and contempt that we hold for you.
I believe the uneducated part. And dropping out of high school just makes you exactly like 30 percent of the rest of Texas. We don't seem to value education here.
Really?
Yesterday you did.
You even claimed to be proud stupid………….
I couldn't care less in what regard the submorons of the left hold me, or
about the sheeplike \”contempt\” of the duped parishioners of the Church of
Climatology. I do have nothing but contempt for the sanctimonious
Inquisitors burning to crush heresy against their Church, and
salvation-hucksters like AlGor peddling his Carbon Indulgences, who
represent actual menaces to society; but hyperventilating
Olbermann-wannabes I disregard. If you prefer that sort of (baselessly)
arrogant insufferability, then there's little hope for you. But then
again you're a leftist, so that pretty much goes without saying.
Anyway, you want to talk about evidence? Just as one example, which might
just cause sluggish ripples in your cranial jello, here is some *genuine*
climate data, not sanitized for your protection by Jimmy Hansen. This is
the Central England Temperature Series, the longest continuous dataset in
the world, dating from 1659:
http://c3headlines.typepad.com/.a/6a010536b580359... />
Happened to have the link to it, but there's lots, lots more on the off
chance you're interested, or show signs of being educable. I think I've
got a graph of Australia/Darwin Zero somewhere, and I know where to find
the Amazing Disappearing Surface Stations.
I couldn't care less in what regard the submorons of the left hold me, or
about the sheeplike \”contempt\” of the duped parishioners of the Church of
Climatology. I do have nothing but contempt for the sanctimonious
Inquisitors burning to crush heresy against their Church, and
salvation-hucksters like AlGor peddling his Carbon Indulgences, who
represent actual menaces to society; but hyperventilating
Olbermann-wannabes I disregard. If you prefer that sort of (baselessly)
arrogant insufferability, then there's little hope for you. But then
again you're a leftist, so that pretty much goes without saying.
Anyway, you want to talk about evidence? Just as one example, which might
just cause sluggish ripples in your cranial jello, here is some *genuine*
climate data, not sanitized for your protection by Jimmy Hansen. This is
the Central England Temperature Series, the longest continuous dataset in
the world, dating from 1659:
http://c3headlines.typepad.com/.a/6a010536b580359... />
Happened to have the link to it, but there's lots, lots more on the off
chance you're interested, or show signs of being educable. I think I've
got a graph of Australia/Darwin Zero somewhere, and I know where to find
the Amazing Disappearing Surface Stations.
I couldn't care less in what regard the submorons of the left hold me, or
about the sheeplike \”contempt\” of the duped parishioners of the Church of
Climatology. I do have nothing but contempt for the sanctimonious
Inquisitors burning to crush heresy against their Church, and
salvation-hucksters like AlGor peddling his Carbon Indulgences, who
represent actual menaces to society; but hyperventilating
Olbermann-wannabes I disregard. If you prefer that sort of (baselessly)
arrogant insufferability, then there's little hope for you. But then
again you're a leftist, so that pretty much goes without saying.
Anyway, you want to talk about evidence? Just as one example, which might
just cause sluggish ripples in your cranial jello, here is some *genuine*
climate data, not sanitized for your protection by Jimmy Hansen. This is
the Central England Temperature Series, the longest continuous dataset in
the world, dating from 1659:
http://c3headlines.typepad.com/.a/6a010536b580359... />
Happened to have the link to it, but there's lots, lots more on the off
chance you're interested, or show signs of being educable. I think I've
got a graph of Australia/Darwin Zero somewhere, and I know where to find
the Amazing Disappearing Surface Stations.
I couldn't care less in what regard the submorons of the left hold me, or
about the sheeplike \”contempt\” of the duped parishioners of the Church of
Climatology. I do have nothing but contempt for the sanctimonious
Inquisitors burning to crush heresy against their Church, and
salvation-hucksters like AlGor peddling his Carbon Indulgences, who
represent actual menaces to society; but hyperventilating
Olbermann-wannabes I disregard. If you prefer that sort of (baselessly)
arrogant insufferability, then there's little hope for you. But then
again you're a leftist, so that pretty much goes without saying.
Anyway, you want to talk about evidence? Just as one example, which might
just cause sluggish ripples in your cranial jello, here is some *genuine*
climate data, not sanitized for your protection by Jimmy Hansen. This is
the Central England Temperature Series, the longest continuous dataset in
the world, dating from 1659:
http://c3headlines.typepad.com/.a/6a010536b580359... />
Happened to have the link to it, but there's lots, lots more on the off
chance you're interested, or show signs of being educable. I think I've
got a graph of Australia/Darwin Zero somewhere, and I know where to find
the Amazing Disappearing Surface Stations.
That's right! Betsey Ensley, former Gore campaign aide, and he company
\”Environmental Media Services.\” EMS is a subsidiary of Fenton
Communications, one of the Soros Family of Companies. This outfit though
has found a particulary foetid marked niche in which to nest, though: its
first major attention-getter was the Alar scare- remember that one? Since
that timew its business model has been based on \”greenmail:\” campaigns on
behalf of corporations to smear a competitor's product as unsafe, or
similar work \”preparing the ground\” for cooperatives of trial lawyers.
Fenton it was who pimped the supposed dangers of silicone breast implants,
a project which was resoundingly profitable for the trial lawyers while
driving Dow Corning out of business.
In other words, an operation that specializes in propaganda based in junk
science.
You actually think Schmidt is trustworty? Perhaps you need to sit down
and actually *read* the Climategate papers.
Oh, teah: here it is:
http://chiefio.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/thermo... />
Do you understand what \”empirically verifiable\” means? Are you seriously
trying to claim that AGW is empirically verifiable reality? Stuff and
nonsense. You believe it because you haver been told about it by others,
and choose to believe it. It suits your worldview, especially your
burning hatred of capitalism and industrial society. Liberals are angry,
angry people: hatred and contempt are all you've got.
In fact I'm tempted to quip that liberalism itself is a denial of
empirically verifiable reality.
You know nutty, it's difficult to tell how many scientists oppose climate change theory because supporters are talking in terms of climate scientists. Deniers put up a petition on a web site and they count TV weathermen and family practice physicians as "scientists". It's apples and almonds…
You are not just denying climate science, you are indicting the entire process of scientific peer review to make some silly political point.
If global warming science is wrong or a hoax it will be outed soon enough. But it won't be by deniers. It will be by the guys doing the science.
I do. It is run by climate scientists including Eric Steig who I met in Seattle while visiting my son a couple of years ago.
My favorite guy is Gavin who has far more patience than I do with deniers. He still refers to you as skeptics.
If you're willing to watch it, I'd highly recommend Philem McAleer's documentary "Mine Your Own Business." It's not well known, so it may be hard to find, but it's worth a try. It blew me away some of the things environmental activists would say. McAleer doesn't preach to the audience, and doesn't add his two cents in to make his point. He doesn't have to. The words of the activists make his point for him – like the one activist who just purchased a half-million dollar boat telling a Romanian man who lives without indoor plumbing that it's the Romanian man who doesn't know the true meaning of the word "poor."
So things like "In Lake 239, populations and diversity of phytoplankton also increased, but primary production showed no consistent trend. Increased wind velocities, increased transparency, and increased exposure to wind of lakes in burned catchments caused thermoclines to deepen. As a result, summer habitats for cold stenothermic organisms like lake trout and opposum shrimp decreased. Our observations may provide a preview of the effects of increased greenhouse warming on boreal lakes." are examples of these "experts" at work? He cites that runoff from a burned catchment (burned: having undergone combustion / catchment: an extent of land where water from rain and melting snow or ice drains downhill into a body of water) which is then sediment saturated and of itself would account for an explosion of life at the microorganism level (think of dumping the entire can of fish-food into the tank and the resulting agae growth explosion) and that result on not only the pushing out of another species of microorganism but the water systems living soup holding more energy than merely water. In the end, for the sake of "science", he makes the enormous leap that this "may" be from global warming? I have read a few other papers on deforestation of catchments and the adverse effects of runoff to get up to speed and while they can clearly show the same alteration in the ecosystems of a body of water, neither of the three I read made the connection to "global warming".
Can you please weed out the actual studies done on climate and the heat sequestering by CO2 and save reading more horrible science. You must have read a few of those cited by yourself and I'd seriously appreciate it. I'm doing the leg work on my end.
Yes in Roger Pielke Sr's work which I sent you to and of which you read the first entry and no further, there are scientists galore and studies cited on his blog with references to the many peer reviewed papers on water vapor feedback. You should have kept reading.
Get serious! The whole MM controversy is specifically about not allowing for reviewing of Briffa/Mann's methodology, the raw data and that horrible bit of coding used. I've written in fortran 77 myself back in university and its too specific language to code in and have mistakes "just happen". As its not a wordy language, you put a lot of time into your tool kit's procedures and know that math all too well by the time you are ready to make use of it in a program.
Sorry pal, I don't take homework assignments from bloggers. If this list doesn't satisfy you then too bad. You are a climate science denier and nothing I can say is going to change that.
You read only the first entry? That's sad. Keep going as he cites many scientists, their studies, their results, reviewing of methodology and most importantly the unimportance of CO2. I've never had a problem with man-made climate change as its happening every time we clear out a forest and alter a micro-climate but the idiocy of CO2 being the driver is what I have a big problem with. As I've said earlier, keep reading Roger Pielke Sr's site and you'll come to an awakening.
So its all about CO2 for you then? No room for any of the contrary evidence? Now who's the denier.
Nice try..
Denial of the science doesn't not make it go away. I'm sorry if that offends you but people like you are wrong and must be stopped.
Actually dead on. You can't get yourself to admit there is a difference between agreeing with man's effect on micro-climates through urban heat islands, clear cutting the land or alteration of waterways and the absolute belief in CO2 as the driving force of climate change throughout the industrial age along with absolute faith in those who specifically promote such.
I'm generally not a fan of documentaries that push a particular view – I've never seen a Michael Moore film, for example. And where science is concerned, I definately prefer to rely on less excited media – for lack of a better term. And I don't deny there are nincompoops out there preaching the joys of a simple life while comfortable in their own lives.
That doesn't mean, however, that I don't think that AGW is real. The weight of science on that side is significant. Will there be situations where it is discovered that particular claims are wrong? Sure, just like the one that put a too soon date on glacial melt in the Himalayas. Science is messy and practiced by human beings. But when so many in the field are warning us of what's happening and the possible catastrophic consequences, I think it's arrogant not to listen.
Not offended at all. The actual studies on CO2 itself as the man created climate driver are what's in question and they are questioning it everywhere. You merely equate a consensus with man's effects on micro-climates by scientists as meaning they "must" therefore believe CO2 to be the driving force behind humanity's effect on climate and that's not the case. Even in the Climategate emails, there is a questioning of being able to get a couple hundred scientists to sign on with "them" for a renewed push at the American congress with the public's losing belief with a near linear increase in CO2 failing to accomplish what the models predicted. Scientists are looking at the long term of association once again as they did with the "new ice age" movement of the 70's else there would have been little mention of hoping for a few hundred with tens of thousands to draw from.
Overall I'm with all those who believe "alarmists" have done more harm to real environmentalism than good. Go all wacky as Al Gore has done and they won't believe a word after, regardless of how good the science is. All those hyper capitalists like Dr. Rajendra Pachauri who are coming into the light as being set for wealth accumulation they could never have possibly dreamed of without the alarmism. I believe this kind of behavior will do more damage to real environmental causes than any "deniers" on a web-board posting away. If that makes me a denier to yourself then I'm fine with that. I won't expect a Christmas card.
It's hard for me to take you seriously when you repeat talking points like "new ice age movement of the 70s. It was one paper that was thrust into popular culture when Newsweek wrote an article and announce the coming of a new ice age on the cover. Climate scientists knew then that we were warming. But they were drowned out by the media. There was never a movement and certainly no scientific consensus.
Perhaps it you would just admit facts that we can all agree on. Like the fact that there is a scientific consensus… and then say, "but I disagree". At least that would be honest. To insist that there is no consensus because everyone does not agree is disingenuous.
Where the advocates of the AGW theory have gone wrong is to try and move public opinion to their side by making specific predictions, often from worst-case scenarios. The warming trend is unmistakable, but the timetable is not clear.
There is a consensus that we are affecting our micro-climates and in turn the macro which is quite literally "written in stone" but the mechanisms are very complex and that to me is the rub. Clear understanding of those mechanisms and the displaying of CO2 as a prime driver doesn't exist as far as I am aware of. It's a theory.
As for alarmism, the scare tactics of annihilation like http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment... have taken truly troubling things like water diversification and control completely off the map with all their theater. That's what gets me going. Each time "environmentalism" is saddled with another eco-celebrity spouting idiocy, it gives those who choose to do nothing at all an excuse to dismiss. I feel the same way about eco-science in that It has to be even more precise, cataloged in detail and reviewed because it specifically is going to challenge "us the people" to do something most of us don't want to even think of which is to reduce our standard of living. The first scientist to cross that line pushing scientific method aside for any agenda or ideal starts the erosion process in public confidence and no good comes from merely ignoring it. By working the science in full view of other scientists to challenge and the general public to witness, we will finally be able to get real things done but everything no matter how bad or embarrassing has to come out from the shadows and into the light of day. It's clean slate time and I hate to see this opportunity wasted.
I think people are being unfair to Mr. Limbaugh! He did not clearly say not to donate to the desperate starving people of Haiti and he has now clarified his statement. His clarification means that this over-feed, loudmouth slob is using this disaster in Haiti as a basis to argue to lower his taxes…I guess so he can eat more…
Just because you don't understand the science doesn't mean it can't be understood. It is complex with lots of data to process and it took a long time to make sense of it all. The consensus in the scientific community exists on the theory and there is no such thing as a micro and a macro climate. Just like there is no micro and macro evolution. It is another attempt by deniers to confuse the voting public.
You don't get to decide which science you accept and which you deny. The science will stand or fall on its own merit.
Cowboy Logic: yup, any scientist WITHOUT AN OVERWHELMING POLITICAL AND FINANCIAL BIAS IN FAVOR OF AGW knows that plate tectonics, not global warming, caused the Haitian earthquake.
Since Glover lacks a degree or any background in science, I guess the answer is to just ignore his absurdity (and how I wish we could simply tune out all the scientifically-challenged Hollywood elite who seem to believe that making a bunch of money in acting means that they have any credibility on scientific issues…Ted Danson, James Cameron, etc.).
Now, let's just wait to see how long it takes Big Environment to start pointing the finger of blame for Haiti at Bush because he didn't sign the Kyoto Protocols……
My scientific credentials – degree in Geology with a minor in BioChem. Member of MENSA. attended CalTech.
AGW is crap science. Poorly executed experiments with results that only support AGW after the data is massaged. Destruction of the Scientific Method (this is actually a larger problem affecting all realms of science nowadays). Lack of true peer review. The intentional loss of ORIGINAL DATA by climate scientists. Computer modeling of the climate which is wildly inaccurate.
'Climate Change' is real, no scientist denies that. I might even be willing to believe in Anthropogenic Global Warming if good science supported it. It doesn't so far and I find less likelihood that it will since all of the climate projections from computer modeling that were published in the 80's and 90's have been inaccurate.
BTW: What are YOUR scientific credentials?
Environmentalism and Conservation are not one and the same. I consider myself a conservationist. I do not consider myself an environmentalist.
Conservation stresses keeping our land, air, and water clean and unpolluted so that we may all enjoy it, as a common good.
Environmentalism is akin to a religion…..even if you have the science that proves that claims of Anthropogenic Global Warming or polar ice sheet shrinking is false, environmentalists STILL want to continue dictating punitive, business-killing legislation. Environmentalists believe so strongly that 'Man is killing Earth' that it has become an article of faith for them….much like the Catholic Church that insisted that the Sun revolved around the Earth years after science proved that we live in a heliocentric system.
Peto – you apparently are unaware of what Limbaugh ACTUALLY said (not surprising since you probably didn't bother to read the source material….ie. a transcript of Limbaugh's show that contained his entire unedited comments)….he questioned the motive of the president who (instead of telling people to donate to the Red Cross) told them to log on to the White House website page where they would have to read a huge monologue about all the wonderful things that Obama has said and is going to do for Haiti BEFORE they could get down to the bottom of the page and click on the 'donate to Red Cross' button. Limbaugh rightly called it….the president used this as an opportunity to make political points. And interestingly enough, the day after Limbaugh called him on it, Michelle Obama taped a PSA for the Red Cross urging people to make direct donations (and she didn't mention logging onto the White House website). Sounds like Obama and Co. realized what a PR mistake they had made and corrected it, huh? It is interesting to see how often Obama has been on the defensive and has reversed position after Limbaugh or another conservative calls him out……
Gregory – you are thinking of the New Madrid quake of 1812. It was the largest EQ in the continental US (the Alaska quake was larger….9.2) with an estimated magnitude of 8.2 on the Richter scale. The New Madrid quake changed the course of the Mississippi River and actually caused it to flow backward for a brief period of time. The quake was so strong that it caused church bells in New England to ring out. It occurred on a failed rift fault and scientists predict another big quake in the Mississippi Valley this century. The devastation would be catastrophic……and the states that would be affected are nowhere near to having building codes that rival CA. It is a VERY scary thought.
I think the key is…..regardless of building codes, the underlying infrastructure (emergency medical response teams, emergency communications, etc.) is really what determines how many lives can be salvaged from a tremendous natural disaster like the Haiti EQ.
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!! Too funny, flappdoodle!
Non-union companies produce less expensive goods that are just as good in quality (and quite often of much better quality) than union companies. That cost savings is passed on to consumers.
A union's main aim is to ensure that its members never lose their jobs and continue to get pay raises and increased benefit packages (regardless of whether the company is actually making a decent profit). If a company can't get rid of lazy employees or pay hard-working employees higher wages than mere clock-punchers, production suffers. Morale suffers. You end up with lower quality product that costs more and more to produce. Look at our automotive industry….GM, Ford, and Chrysler have been battling incipient bankruptcy for years because of the enormously expensive benefits packages that the unions extorted from them, the jobs banks they had to set up, and the outrageously inflated wages they paid low-skilled and uneducated workers (excuse me, $50K a year for being a newspaper delivery driver??? Only in freaking Detroit!).
And by the way….worker safety is NOT a major union issue. Why? Because American workers are already protected by a variety of federal and state safety laws which are very well-enforced. Worker safety may have been an issue at the turn of the century LAST CENTURY, but it plays no role in modern-day unions.
If I work for a company, why should I pay a single penny of my paycheck to a union?!?! I am perfectly capable of negotiating with my employer for raises…..and have done so quite successfully in the past. I don't want or need a union to 'represent' me. I don't want or need a union to have any control over my healthcare, my paycheck, or my retirement savings.
Johio, the checks on corporations are the employees. If you don't like the salary you are being paid, then leave. Go somewhere else where you will be paid more. If you don't like your benefits package, then negotiate with your employer. The only people this doesn't work well for are employees who don't perform well or those who have an over-inflated and unrealistic expectations of compensation.
Preval is hiding out at the airport. The Haitian police have been out on the streets sporadically, mainly shooting looters and the small street gangs that are roaming the streets.
The real question OUGHT to be, where is Haiti's emergency response personnel (rescue workers, medical teams, communications specialists, heavy equipment operators, supply/food/water distribution system, etc.)….the answer is that it is non-existent. THAT is why we are seeing a terrible situation made even worse. The WTC attack was devastating, but the NYC had a first-rate emergency response system in place. New Orleans, following Katrina….not so much….
Actually, I didn't think that global warming could cause earthquakes (didn't seem reasonable since it is the ground and that is the air) but apparently global warming can create rising sea levels which can in fact trigger seismic activity. mother nature is weird.
oh yeah, and I don't know if you heard about the tornados in LA today. you do realize that that exact scenario was portrayed in the movie "the day after tomorrow." guess global warming isn't so far fetched after all eh?
i think haiti sucks dick and every body was is a fucking faget from there
why dont these poor basterds live some were thers not so much disaster like ive never seen an earthquake in my life worst disaster ive seen is a semi tornado and that dident even wrek are town so i think its there fualt there idiots
Actually, a rise in sea level, in and of itself, cannot really be linked to seismic activity (see last paragraph where I discuss sea water loading at continental margins).
I think you may be thinking of the CAUSE of rising sea levels during the last glacial period….ie. the retreat of the massive ice sheets which caused sea levels to rise (the ice melted and the sea level rose). Isostatic rebound is the rise of continental land masses that had previously been depressed by huge ice sheets (like the Laurentide ice sheet), as a result of isostasy. (For an idea of how isostasy works, think of a helium balloon….if you lay several kitchen towels over the balloon, it will sink down a bit. Take off the kitchen towels and the balloon rises.)
Isostatic rebound can absolutely cause seismic activity…anytime you change the stress and strain you are going to end up with deformation and fracture…there is a limit to how elastic rocks are. Plus, when the continent begins to rebound, you are also going to have mantle flow back into the glaciated areas.
I have seen a couple of papers which try to link the rise in sea level at the last glacial period with an increased load (from the water) at continental margins, causing seismic activity. However, I think we need to bring some sanity back to science and stop grasping at straws in order to 'prove' that global warming is dangerous and alarming. A far more likely explanation for increases in seismic activity at the continental margins during the last glacial period is tectonic activity (movement of tectonic plates). Sorry, I just think the evidence for sea water loading at the continental margins as a primary cause of seismic activity is thin at best.
This article doesn't have anything to do with discouraging donations to help with the 'relief' effort….everyone with a conscience feels empathy for the men, women, and children who are dying as the result of a natural disaster (compounded by Haiti's abysmal lack of infrastructure). Relief efforts to provide emergency food, water, and medical help are being well-funded and supported by Americans of all stripes – liberals and conservatives alike.
However, McAleer is bringing attention to the fact that the environmental movement opposes urbanization, housing that is both EQ-safe AND affordable, and development. Don't you want Haitians to live in safe housing and be able to afford food and medical care in the future? If the answer is yes, then we also need to support their efforts to develop, urbanize, and industrialize….and those goals are specifically ones which are squarely opposed by Big Environment.
Yes, Alan F, he did……
The utter lack of empathy of people who are fortunate enough to live a life of luxury (luxury defined as having enough to eat, a safe roof over their head, living free from oppression, access to life-saving medical care, etc.) is pretty unbelievable, isn't it?!?
Amphipolis and JPA: There is no industry to speak of in Haiti, so grinding poverty and lack of economic opportunity force rural Haitians to migrate to Port-Au-Prince where they live in overcrowded, unsafe housing. Industrialization brings wealth, wealth brings higher standards of living and safety (with housing and businesses and the population often spread out over a larger area…aka suburbs), higher standards of living and safety bring more stability and infrastructure, and more stability and infrastructure means that even a devastating natural disaster can be managed better.
Can you name an environmentalist who supports industrialization? I can't. Most of them are modern-day Luddites who regard industrialization as the source of pollution, not as the source of economic opportunity.
And btw cities CAN withstand large quakes…..Japan and California have had engineering standards in place that have helped many buildings and structures withstand major quakes. Example: The 1/17/94 Northridge quake was large (6.7 magnitude) and occurred in a heavily populated area. Yet there was relatively little loss of life and property.
Good point….my hubby just brought up the same thing about fortran. LOL
It's becoming apparent that mikattollah doesn't have an adequate background in science or the ability to search for info from organizations that dispute IPCC official party line.
well climate change may not cause earth quakes neither does pacts with the devil you morons…earth quakes are caused by tectonic plates moving …and the afterschocks are caused by those above said plates settling in their new position….now its sientist that developed warning systems not preachers ok …and in extremely poor countries houses arent constructed to ..be able to withstand earth quakes …..we cant all mve to places where there is no earth quakes or tsunamies or tornados or or or …so humans have to help each other when a disaster happends …and if you dont want to help dont …but shut your dumb trapps for a change
and americans did not come from …america either perhaps they could go to england germany france or or or ..idiot..most hatients where brought there by europeans to work for free to make europeans rich …perhaps ..that whealth that was generated for those families ..on either side of the pond should be confiscated ..and used for retrebution ….there are ways ..you may not like hearing it …i suggest ..if you dont want to help DONT but get lost ..you devils
and as far as big government goes …haiti is just like the wild west america used to be lawless no government and no taxes …perfect place to move to for small government proponents …when are you demonseeds leaving to the land of noooooo taxes and no government i cant wait
First of all, the enviromentalism isn't to blame. Poor countries like Haiti, have little to no environmental regulations. It is the lack of a building standards that are to blame.
To clear up the earthquake debate. Yes global warming is responsible for some earthquakes, a very small subset. The reason is as follows: Glaciers weigh a lot, in fact, they weigh so much that it pushes the crust beneath them downward. As glaciers melt the the weigh is reduce, and the crust rebounds. This rebounding can cause earthquakes. The earthquakes can be surprising strong, around a magnitude 5.
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