Discussing Citizens United, Free Speech, Congressional Corruption, and More With Bill Moyers and Larry Lessig
by Nick GillespieOn Friday, I appeared on Bill Moyers Journal with Harvard law prof and cyberspace theorist Lawrence Lessig to discuss the whys and wherefores of the Citizens United Supreme Court ruling. From the show’s writeup:
The Supreme Court’s January 2010 decision of the Citizen’s United v. Federal Election Commission on campaign finance regulations has caused a stir around the political spectrum. A poll from Angus Reid Public Opinion found that 65 percent of people surveyed disagreed with the Supreme Court’s decision — 67 percent of Democrats, 63 percent of Republicans, and 72 percent of independents.
Libertarian journalist Nick Gillespie says all that worry is misplaced in a much-watched video “Three Reasons Not to Sweat Citizens United.” “If you want to get bent out of shape about something, direct your ire at a massive and constantly growing government that has its hands in virtually every aspect of economic and social life in America,” Says Gillespie.
Harvard legal scholar Lawrence Lessig disagrees, viewing the ruling as a another step in the takeover of democracy by big money. In an article for THE NATION entitled “How to Get Our Democracy Back: If You Want Change, You Have to Change Congress,” Lessig calls for a constitutional convention to make public financing of campaigns the law of the land, “What both sides must come to see is that the reform of neither is possible until we solve our first problem first — the dependency of the Fundraising Congress.”
As you might guess, we didn’t agree on much, but it was a spirited and civil conversation well worth having. A full transcript is available, along with video of the segment and links to related materials, by clicking on the image below.
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40 Comments
Poor, poor Bill Moyers. Bless his little bitty ol' heart. He just caint help himself. He has the mental disease known as liberalism.
While I think we all agree that control of our politicians by big labor, big oil, big finance or any of the other interests out there seriously undermines our political system, these are mere symptoms as Nick Gillespie points out of the root cause of big government. If you want to take the money out of politics, then get politics away from the money-generators. Businessmen would not care about politicians if they didn't serve to gain by supporting them.
The only good point Lessing makes is, that Congress has become a self-preserving entity. Mr. Gillespie, calm and cool as ever…Good debate, and I thought you made an excellent closing remark…
NICK GILLESPIE: And we can do that now. We don't need a constitutional amendment. What we need to do is to say to our congressmen, "If you vote for this law, if you vote for this policy, you're done. You're fried." And that can happen. And it has happened. And it should happen more. I think we are moving into a world of more engaged politics, more participatory politics, because of the internet. Because of other dimensions of life. Decentralization of power or rather of knowledge, if not of political power. And it will lead to a decentralization of political power.
Billy Boy should join JBJ soon
What a conspicuous example of msm, coupled with "populist" rhetoric, brainwashing and yellow journalism. The recent decision by the SCOTUS was exactly the proper decision.BHO lied through his teeth when he stated that this decision "reversed 100 years of law". WTF?McCain-Feingold was passed in 2002, the ORIGINAL decision(the Tillman Act) was made law in 1907!! The TA prohibited corporations and interstate banks contrinuting directly to candidates.The TA was strengthened in 1910,1911, in the 1920's(several times) and in 1934.Further restrictions were placed in effect in the 70's. There are already constraints which state that no foreign corporations or entities(George Soros?) may contribute directly to a candidate,They must contribute through a PAC(media matters?).The reason the prog/libs complain is because before the SCOTUS decision brought us back to the ORIGINAL law ACORN, SEIU, med. matters, et al, had a veritable death grip on media advertising. Not only does this restore 1st Amendment Rights to U.S. corps., it levels the playing field, as business and industry are more favorable to Conservatives because of our capitalistic, free-enterprise, pro-small business policies.
I am reliably informed that the Piss Stream Media intends to counter Breitbart with a "Big" website of their own. It's going to be called:
BIG BULLSH!T
Another great article and clip, Mr. Gillespie. Your debate opponent seemed overly fixated on feelings and perceptions. I'm surprised that you didn't press him on that issue, but you made a winning case for free speech nonetheless.
I especially liked the distinction you made about being a "lower-case" libertarian and an independent. As a Republican, I hold a few libertarian ideas (crazy me…I actually believe what the Constitution and Declaration say) but I would never want to be called an "upper-case" Libertarian.
Although I have only recently become aware of you and your work, I am thoroughly impressed with what I have seen so far. I look forward to more of your well reasoned postings!
Well one thing I do know if the President and the Libs started crying about this then it has to be good for the country
Back in 2002 Walter E Williams wrote a great piece titled something like "Why we're a divided nation" (google it, its a great read)
In it he makes the case that when decisions are made politically they are a "win/lose" affair whereas decisions made by the market are more likely to be "win/win", so the less power government has the less contention there is over who is in office.
The reason Americans don't trust Congress (or government in general) is not because of how they're funded, they don't trust government because it has way too much power over our daily lives.
When it comes down to it, massive limits on government power would negate the concern over campaign financing (if the bastards have the power to screw with you it doesn't matter whether they're doing it because they're jerks or because they've been bought off).
A massive pay cut, elimination of pensions, Term limits. Constitutionally required balanced budgets, part time legislature and remote controlled shock collars would solve the problem much better than restricting free speech 60 days before an election (or even worse handing over all funding of our elections to the government itself … talk about the fox guarding the hen house … I've concluded that anyone promoting government funded elections are either completely stupid or absolute evil).
I would have protested the tea party, but I am busy protesting Washington corruption and the government parties’ power grab.
The trillion dollar question? The life or death of law?
SEND THE ILLEGALS HOME.
No progressive government party member can speak of freedom or justice if the law of the land is dismissed.
This independent say, both government parties need pull their pants up and quit covering the working people with their recycled material.
SEND THE ILLEGALS HOME. It is time to show compassion for the American Worker. The American worker doesn’t need more pretty words of inaction or the infamous action of more taxes, we need to up hold the law and quit punishing the American worker who has obeyed the law. It’s time the Kings stop sacrificing the American worker’s jobs, homes, and lives for a lie of their compassion.
Any job creation claims are false if it doesn’t send law breakers home and punish those who harbor and enable them. We send accomplices to jail for other crimes of this horrendous nature it is time to send these accomplices to jail for this crime against the America worker or the America justice system is not about justice or law, but about slavery.
Sending illegals home will:
put millions of Americans back to work now.
Save millions of American worker’s home, jobs, and lives.
Save billions in HC costs.
Save billions in government programs.
Save Billions in law enforcement costs.
Save billions education costs.
keep trillions of dollars in America.
which government party is standing up for the american worker..?????????????????????????
If we wanted to diminish the power of lobbyists and special interests over the government and people, we could repeal the 17th Amendment. Doing that would make Senators answerable to their state legislators and not the lobbyists. Increasing the number in the House of Representative about sevenfold would make it more difficult for lobbyists to influence elections and it would give the people better representation.
If Congress numbers drop anymore there will be a minus sign.
Notice the appalling lack of interest in regards to this issue? 60-70% of people responded negatively to the SCOTUS decision? I believe this shows an overwhelming lack of true understanding of the core subject matter, even for our fellow posters on biggov, astounding. …………………….Hanzo
This is where I fear the progressives may have already won.
The absolute distrust of capitalism and liberty by most of the electorate should scare the hell out of anyone that knows anything about economics or freedom.
Yeah, I'm mister cheerful … I have a cold … sorry.
It truly is stunning, sometimes it seems as if everyone marches in lockstep with the prog/facists. Perhaps a hot toddy is in order, for your cold. Take care, friend.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Hanzo
The problem is that another name for "lobbyists" and "special interests" is "The American People."
Sure there are some corrupt, monied interests distributing bribes among the lobbying set, but for the most part lobbying is the primary mechanism by which Congress hears from the American People (the other being elections, but those only happen once every 4-6 years for these jokers).
For every "evil, greedy, capitalistic" industrial/business lobbying organization there's a dozen AARPs, NRAs, Taxpayers' Union and other organizations that truly are the "voice of the people".
The whole point of campaign finance "reform" and lobbying "reform" is to further separate the Congress from the voices of their constituents … and make everyone feel good about it.
[...] of the First Amendment: “Congress Shall Make No Law” Nick Gillespie, Big Government: Discussing Citzens United, Free Speech, Congressional Corruption, and More With Bill Moyers and Larr… and Reason.tv: 3 Reasons Not to Sweat Citizens United John Nolte, Big Hollywood: Director Adam [...]
Walter Williams is a genius. He makes things very simple to understand. Wish more people would be turned on to him.
Enjoyed the debate Gillespie is great.
Lessig's argument reminds me of when I used to work the 4PM to 12AM shift.
On my way home every night at this corner I would turn right to get to my favorite bar for an unwinder (or two) instead of turning left to go straight home.
Lessig would have me solve this argueable 'problem' by having me get rid of the car I was driving at that time.
I want my country to start off shore drilling yesterday. I will contribute 50 bucks to a pol who feels this way.
If Exxon and Mobile contribute ten million to elect pols who feel this way ?????.
Sorry Harvard Professor Lessig the way I see it, the playing field has been leveled.
My 50 bucks against my liberal yok counterpart's 50 bucks and….
Exxon's million bucks against the New York Times million bucks.
DO not take cool-aid for that cold there Z.
But I am afraid you are on to something there.
Okay children, let's try it again.
Corporations, Profit, Capitalism, Free Market, bad for our country…MMM-MMM-MMM.
Congress's approval rating has dropped even while laws restricting political speech have increased. Lessig's view seems to be typically liberal – Hey, we need even more restrictive laws. That will fix things.
Excellent debate! I can never get over all the people who earnestly believe that government is corrupt, so what we really need to do is give government much more power. These kinds of well meaning people always confuse me.
If you didn't watch the video, I highly recommend you go back and click play. This interchange beautifully illustrated the fundamental difference between libertarian thinking and modern liberal philosophy.
The libertarian (Gillespie) trusts the people to make their own decisions, understanding full well that in the end they will get the government they deserve/demand (unafraid of corporate influence). While the liberal (Lessig) is secure in his belief that money buys votes, the average citizen can't be trusted with critical thinking in a highly influenced campaign and big brother must step in to save the day.
Personally, I'm more concerned whether or not my vote is counted properly within my state, because at the end of the day my informed decision is the limit to my power. (Concerning my informed decision given the Supreme Courts ruling – corporations that take positions in elections that are contrary to my own will naturally lose my patronage, as they should for every other informed voter concerning their positions.)
well I did type a pithy response here … one that frankly seemed less controversial than the post I posted below, but it seems to be lost in "Admin must approve" limbo :p
Mr. President will you and your entire administration kindly resign and get the hell out of the way! Take your phony ass Zars with you.
More government is regress, More Freedom is progress
One thing that I don't understand in the pass they give SCOTUS. As a branch of government, it's just as political. I don't think they always decide to hear a case based on its importance. I think sometimes it's how much political influence a case has before it's heard. Let's not talk ourselves into believing the SCOTUS is on some pedestal elevated above Washington.
So than we should do ….what?
remember the size of the word IMPORTANCE is determined by the individual using it.
Why must PBS continue to air programs led by Bill Moyers and yet a counterbalance show hosted by whomever would be called "some right-wing nut-job" by the MSM? There are few older folks on TV news shows today that I steer further away from than Mr. Moyers. He's so far left I think he thinks he's an Ivy League professor.
By importance, I meant legal precedent or a compelling social issue. I know it's a thin line between political influence and social issue, but I'm just tired of the call for changing the way things are done in Washington with regards to Congress. I'm not defending Congress, but I don't know if people consider SCOTUS as having a political influence or that decisions made by justices might be influenced by politics. I'm not calling them corrupt, but I'm saying that it's become popular to demonize the way things are done with the Executive and Legislative Branches. Politics is dirty, and I keep seeing so many folks getting elected on the premise that they will clean it up, knowing full well they won't. It's a contact sport, there aren't bad guys or good guys, i.e. lobbyists, just strategies/plays for getting your agenda through within the legal limits of the law. At least that's the way I see it.
The problem with Lessig's (and the rest of the left) belief that "money buys votes" is that its provably false.
If it were true than we'd have had President Perot.
We have “only” ourselves to blame for this mess:
This quote came from the Czech Republic. Someone has it all figured out. It’s sad that most of the people of the US don’t.
“The danger to America is not Barack Obama but a citizenry capable of entrusting a man like him with the presidency. It will be easier to limit and undo the follies of an Obama presidency than to restore the necessary common sense and good judgment to a depraved electorate willing to have such a man for their president.
The problem is much deeper and far more serious than Mr. Obama, who is a mere symptom of what ails us. Blaming the prince of the fools should not blind anyone to the vast confederacy of fools that made him their prince.
The republic can survive a Barack Obama, who is, after all, merely a fool. It is less likely to survive a multitude of fools such as those who made him their president.”
(copied)
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