Behind the Obama Labor Board’s Bashing of Boeing is a Case Full of Irony and Union Failure
by LaborUnionReportOn Wednesday, when President Obama’s union-controlled National Labor Relations Board issued a complaint against the Boeing Company for making a sound business decision to “dual source” its 787 production, it was another blatant example of a government agency run amok. However, while most of the nuts and bolts behind the dispute were detailed here, there are several other, more intricate details behind the NLRB’s legally tenuous prosecution of Boeing that are deserving of closer examination—most notably, the union’s own culpability behind the decision.
A Union With a Bone to Pick.
Even before the decision was made by Boeing to locate the second assembly line in South Carolina, Boeing’s union (the International Association of Machinists) had a problem in South Carolina. Namely, workers at the facility had voted the Machinists’ union out shortly after Boeing bought the facility in 2009 from Vought Aircraft because of workers believed the union poorly represented them.
What brought the workers to the point of decertifying the union an interesting story that is both part irony and part poor representation by the union.
In 2007, after having been narrowly voted in to represent the employees of Vought Aircraft in North Charleston, SC, the Machinists’ union (IAM) was still in the midst of negotiating its first contract when the union struck Boeing for two months in Puget Sound in 2008. Since Vought was one of Boeing’s suppliers, the union’s Washington strike forced Vought to temporarily close the South Carolina plant and lay off the employees.
After nearly a year of negotiations, as the one year anniversary approached, there were reportedly rumors that there was a decertification effort under way. However, either sensing that it may be decertified or realizing its potential membership base was going to be significantly cut back, the union engineered a contract to lock employees in even before the company had presented its final offer:
Some employees have expressed concern that they didn’t know a vote was being taken and that only a small fraction of those in the collective bargaining unit might have participated. Those concerns came up at a meeting last night at the union hall, according to a worker who was there.
Dallas-based Vought was also taken by surprise that its workers voted to ratify an agreement with the Machinists union, the company said in a statement released Thursday.
Vought spokeswoman Lynne Warne said Vought was not privy to information about the number of workers who participated in the vote.
“Despite the fact that additional bargaining sessions were scheduled and final proposals had not been exchanged, Vought officials were advised by the IAM (Machinists union) that union members had ratified Vought’s proposals at an emergency meeting called by the union on Nov. 7,” the company said.
Touting that an “overwhelming” 92% of the members voted to accept the contract, it soon became apparent that the 92% the union claimed was really12 out of 13 people who actually showed up at the union’s meeting and voted (out of nearly 200 affected). What was worse than the back-door deal the Machinists rammed through was the fact that it was also a bad deal, according to employees:
“We got screwed,” said newly laid-off assembly mechanic Jay Fleckenstein on Thursday night as he worked his second job delivering pizza.
[snip]
And mechanic Pam DeGarmo said the 1.5 percent annual wage hike won’t even cover the union dues and inflation.
“It’s a horrible contract,” said DeGarmo. “I didn’t gain anything. It’s going to cost me money.“
Several months later, in July 2009, Boeing announced it was buying the South Carolina facility from Vought. By the end of July, with the facility purchased, the employees in South Carolina filed to decertify the union.
Meanwhile, in Puget Sound, Boeing had already begun seeking to obtain a longer contract with the Machinists union. In early July, Boeing told Washington State politicians that it was seeking a longer contract with the union
Members of the state’s congressional delegation said Tuesday that Boeing is laying down an ultimatum to its biggest union: Unless a long-term agreement barring strikes by the Machinists is reached by this fall, Boeing will build a second production line for the 787 someplace outside Washington.
“The whole thing comes down to, can they get a long-term agreement with the union, with a no-strike clause,” influential U.S. Rep. Norm Dicks, D-Bremerton, said in an interview Tuesday. “That’s what ultimately has to happen here in the next two or three or four months — or they are going to go elsewhere.
“I think if they get this agreement, they would stay.”
In a separate interview, Gov. Chris Gregoire said Boeing Commercial Airplanes CEO Scott Carson told her recently the company is seeking a long-term no-strike agreement with the Machinists union.
Carson also said Boeing will likely make its decision on the location of a second 787 production line this fall, though Gregoire said he did not specifically link the two elements as an ultimatum.
In late October 2009, Boeing, unable to get an agreement with the union, announced that it would locate its second assembly line in South Carolina.
“We’re taking prudent steps to protect the interests of our customers as we introduce the 787-9 and ramp up overall production to 10 twin-aisle 787 jets per month,” said Albaugh.
“While we welcome the development of this expanded capability at Boeing Charleston, the Puget Sound region is the headquarters of Boeing Commercial Airplanes. Everett will continue to design and produce airplanes, including the 787, and there is tremendous opportunity for our current and future products here,” Albaugh emphasized. “We remain committed to Puget Sound.”
In March, 2010, the Machinists filed charges against Boeing claiming the company’s move was in retaliation for the 2008 strike. At the time, the Seattle Times noted:
The IAM struck Boeing for two months in fall 2008, the fourth strike in a decade. Early the following year, Boeing Chief Executive Jim McNerney told Washington’s congressional delegation the repeated strikes were a major problem and the company would seek another location for its second 787 assembly line unless the union agreed to a long-term no-strike clause.
“We were entirely transparent with the IAM,” [Boeing spokeman Tim] Healy said. “We needed an agreement that would allow us to meet our customer commitments.”
The complaint was filed with the NLRB in March. That same month, Jim Albaugh, the chief executive of Boeing Commercial Airplanes, said in a Seattle Times interview that “the overriding factor (in choosing South Carolina) was not the business climate. And it was not the wages we are paying today … It was that we can’t afford to have a work stoppage every three years.”
Is that an illegal reprisal, punishing a past strike? Or is it a legitimate strategic choice, avoiding future strikes?
“Our decision has everything to do with being a reliable supplier and is not a reprisal for the past,” said Boeing’s Healy.
The NLRB, in the complaint published on Wednesday, believes that, rather than Boeing making a legitimate strategic choice (as many other companies have) Boeing’s actions were “in retaliation for past strike activity and to chill future strike activity by its union employees.”
Unfortunately for the IAM, if it were not for its poor representation in South Carolina, where the union had existed before getting kicked out, it could have had Boeing members in both Washington as well as South Carolina and the NLRB fight would never have had to take place.
_________________
“I bring reason to your ears, and, in language as plain as ABC, hold up truth to your eyes.” Thomas Paine, December 23, 1776
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89 Comments
All these damn unions need to be behind the taxpayers union.
But they are not.
Boeing needs to fire every Employee in Washington State and move that production facility to Canada.
It is a sad day when Canada is a less Socialist Society than the United States of America, a sad day indeed.
Boeing Enployees in Washington State must be punished for Voting in the Union and keeping the Union, it is the Employees fault.
Will the fools keep it up until all industry is located in the South? Perhaps it is our long delayed revenge
for the carpetbaggers who pillaged the South after the War of Northern Aggression. Revenge is sweet,
even when long delayed…
Happy Trails, ALL!
; )
What the stupid Unionistas continue to do is drive the major corporations to move work away from the US. The damn fools are so in bed with Communists that they think they are WORLD CLASS LEADERS when all the are is ANTI-AMERICAN TOOLS.
I've never been fond of Boeing but despite the history I have with them, the situation they were in was totally ridiculous. Aerospace companies have it hard enough as it is without the government and unions stepping in to make matters even worse.
When will the good members of unions turn on, and reject their Marxist union overlords? How much does it possibly take for decent folks with a love for THIS country to finally say "we will not allow our names to be used anymore?"
Where are you?
Gov. Gregoire called Boeing's bluff; she and the people of Puget Sound lost. Sorry, Christine.
Careful what you wish for. You thought the carpetbaggers were bad?…. What will happen when all the Northern Scum Union Members move down South and demand jobs,,,, just like the jobs they had up North, a High Paying Job they did not have to work at?
Union Scum after all believe they are entitled to such things.
Couldn't find the original thread, but I saw you here. In answer to your question about my original comment on TP. Very briefly, while I'm in no way by any stretch of the imagination terribly knowledgeable in economics, I lean more toward the Keynesian/Samuelson viewpoint; I think Econned is a brilliant book, etc.
Reading about 'Magentar' and its role in the financial crisis just reinforces the point for me that "rational" self-interest just doesn't work. Free markets (which are not always self-correcting) and less and less regulation benefits the wealthy, certainly not those without money. Government sometimes needs to protect people from other "greedy men" as well as foreign enemies. And since the Tea Party seems to want more of Rand's "hands off, just let the free market take care of things,", I think it has two sets of rules….or the group think is just terribly naive and really believes that minimally regulated capitalism and free markets produce the greatest good for the greatest number of people and we all will reap the benefits of lower taxes on the wealthy businesses. Or the philosophy could just be that they don't care because it's all about the individual, not the common good. Just not my cup of tea….
I have no problem with Private Unions collectively bargaining with private corporations. I think when the government gets involved, (In this case, the NLRB) it begins to stink to high heaven.
Boeing and IAM failed to reach a no-strike clause agreement in Washington, NO and let me repeat NO I.A.M. workers were fired, or layed off in Puget Sound.
Boeing expanded into a right-to-work state because of their strategic concerns about being a reliable supplier. So why the hell is the NLRB claiming a retaliation, when no puget sound workers were fired or layed off due to the strike? This reeks of political payback and bully thug tactics that Public Sector unions used in Wisconsin.
Is this not a free country? In two years Obama has succeeded in doing exactly what he wanted to do, which was above all, turn the American people against each other, make the government the biggest in history, pay reparations to the black people, and turn America into a socialist nation. How did we let this happen? Sure the people that voted for him wanted these things, but the ones that didn't have done nothing to protect our rights. We are just sitting here and letting it happen. Even people in worse countries stand up against their government when they don't agree, as a majority, on the governments actions. Our voting last election hasn't proved to be the success that we thought it would be, so what do we do next? Any suggestions?
Sorry, got off track there. What I wanted to say about this topic was that an American corporation has the right to do business wherever the hell they want to. We ought to consider ourselves lucky that Boeing kept their plant in the US, they could have gone overseas and that would be more jobs lost because of unions and government. If the unions win this lawsuit, I will then be certain that this country is done for!
Everything we see happening that is mystifying to logic is a deliberate action by these Godless demon driven idiots in every facet from the unions to misturd president. God rescue these United States of America, in Jesus holy name amen.
why go to canada, when mexico, india, or china would gladly take on building thier jets?
The unions are merely a microcosm of the liberals mindset, they cause the very problems that they DEMAND solutions to and are way too stupid to realize they caused them themselves. The government educations finnally paying off for the communists
The union members. They let the management tell them what to do and get worked up when they perceive they are getting screwed. If they would go to the meetings and actually choose leaders who are looking out for the members instead of themselves the unions would be a lot better off.
did anybody see atlas shrugged? sounds like a great comparison to wesly mouch to me.
Canada is just a hop, skip, and jump from where the Plant is now.
One thing that would help, is that you must pay a fair federal tax in order to vote, you know, be invested. Used to be you had to be a landowner. I personally would raise vote age to 21 and employed. Damnit! I can still dream!
Don't over industrialize, you'll end up flooded with commies. Industry brings government oversight, gov. oversight brings inflated bureaucracy, that brings over educated bureaucrats, and they bring the communism. yeeehaw!
The IAM is the same union that intentionally put Eastern Airlines out of business because they hated Frank Borman, Eastern's CEO. Didn't matter they put thousands of their own members out of a job, they just wanted to get even. Boeing will win in the courts, but it will take a year or so with no second production line. And Boeing will have to kiss Obama's posterior for getting the tanker contract. And they will probably give a ton of money to him for his campaign to stay in his good graces. That's the way crony capitalism works.
And Boeing is a crony capitalist to the extreme.
Of course, if you rationally investigate it with an open mind, you'd see, but you don't, just pooh pawing everything and anything, showing us how smart you are because you can disagree with the great Ayn Rand. Bad news, bub. We could go toe to toe over just the things you missed, much less all that you've misunderstood and misrpresented. Of course, if it really was the way YOU said, I'd hate capitalism, too. Trouble is, you blame things that have nothing to do with capitalism on capitalism, while assuming under socialism they'd all be fixed hunky dory. Just curious, but would you care to name ONE thing that would be better under Socialism? Better yet, name five, don't get smarmy, argue intelligently, and we might actually have a reasoned discussion this time. But, facts, please, and links, not simply your assertion that "that's crazy". Go ahead, name five things, if possilble, that would be better under socialism and why. I'll destroy all you can name, if you like, so if you get full of yourself, do twenty, or two hundred. But let's start with five. Or even one. I'm waiting patiently.
If you think Unions are helping the US make jobs and work then go to Wal-Mart, Lowes, or HomeDepot and see how many things you can find that are MADE in USA. Just because it has a familiar USA name don't count. It must say MADE IN USA. (Stanley, Black&Decker, Crescent, Etc. are all made in China now.) I doubt if you could fill up a cart with different items that are actually made in the USA. And the ones you pick probably say "Assembled in USA" – that means made in China and bolted together over here. Even the plywood at Lowes/HomeDepot is MADE in CHINA from trees grown in the USA – look at it!
Sitting around waiting for theirs. Everyone has gotten used to there "being a law!". Remember when people used to say, when something went wrong and someone got screwed, "There oughtta be a law!" Well, we got laws, from Unions, Government agencies of all types, local governments and ngo's, you name it. All without the seperation of powers.
Next time you want to tell someone else how to live, what their water usage, electricity usage, public dress and actions should be, how to think, etc., make sure you have gone to the mirror and admitted you are a closet communist.
I was briefly a member of CWA(communication workers of America) after I graduated University… in my 1st 90 days they threatened strike at my shop the GTE Dallas NOC(national operations center) where I monitored GTE communications, it looked like the NASA launch control center … giant screens on the walls displaying all of GTEs networks communication…It was a really cool job
it was also a small union shop of 60-70 people to run it around the clock day in and day out… and they threatened to strike over office chairs… thats it they wanted Herman Miller aeron chairs……. 50 chairs at $2,500 each
And I made the mistake of telling them I didnt want to strike because I thought it was silly to strike over such a thing
When my 1st 90day review came where they decided if I was going to be hired on permanent… the union shop manager was in the meeting with myself and the NOC manager and I got black balled by the union rep and was let go.
I was top of my class at UT and GTEs #1 pick from across the nation to fill the position
Unions can rot in hell… sorry bastards they personify everything thats wrong with this country
Pointless for this to go any further with you since you think that not believing in unregulated free markets and believing that some government regulations are good amounts to socialism. You apparently think that someone who doesn't share your view is a socialist, and I never said I hated capitalism; that's one of the Right's talking points.
You'll destroy all my points? Since I said I was in no way an expert on such issues and since these are my opinions, I fail to see how you can destroy my points. It's not like you're going to provide statistics on the last 30 years which proves Reagan's feeling that "government is the problem." As I said, the Tea Party philosophy is just not my cup of Tea. You'll never convince me otherwise, although Harry Tuttle probably could probably convince me that I am mistaken about certain things since he seems to be quite an intelligent fellow.
I don't see Ayn Rand as "great" at all and and if you think I'm trying to show you how smart I am by disagreeing with "the great" one….well that rather silly. Oh my god, the person is disagreeing the Ayn Rand.
Too many of them have been turned into mindless drones. I'm in the aircraft business, and we get the ones that are able to break the shackles of their mind slavery. Although we still get a few that spout off how the unions are so beneficial. I ask them why they came to Texas, a right to work state, and they say they couldn't find another job.
I was told by my peers that the last time a union tried to get into our shop a lot of the workers would throw stuff at them in front of the gate, or even try and run them down. They finally gave up.
We have no patience for fools here in Texas. Thank God for concealed carry, and the 2nd amendment.
<DIV>Cool. Pointless to respond, I agree.</DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV>—
If I were Boeing I would cease operations and put all sales and lease contracts on indefinite hold. I would then send a letter to every shareholder explaining to them that unless we are able to have a firm contract for the span of one decade that all operations would cease and they would be moved to South Carolina or Texas once a facility of sufficient size could be completed to manufacture our products. In that same letter I would inform them that our longterm goal would be to become a private company and in time we would be buying back all outstanding shares.
In about seven seconds the Union would be knocking on my door. Before I even licked the first stamp.
"Socialism is for the socialist. Not the people" (Andrew Wilkow). Sheeple will always let themselves be led.
LONG LIVE THE GREAT LONE STAR STATE!!!
HAPPY TRAILS!!!
; )
Damn those Canadians for being more economically free! Tis truly a sad time.
Merely a refrain of a sad old song.
Union "negotiates" its workers right out of a job.
What worker in his right mind doesn't understand the concept of On-Time Delivery? Especially in an industry like airline manufacturing?
Did these morons actually believe they could strike every three years, creating massive delays and incurring huge late-delivery fines for their employer, and be immune from the consequences?
Are people just so financially/economically retarded that they don't realize that their own employment depends on their employer's solvency?
Louisiana is a right to work state. Many states in the south are too. We prefer to make our own deals. All that a Union would do for me is lower opportunity, increase the number of workers so the employer could not pay me as much, and take money from my paycheck. Now that is a deal I cannot afford.
Maybe after they get laid off, these jokers in Seattle can go on strike and demand higher unemployment, too.
With a democrat administration, they'd probably get it, too.
The truth about unions rears its ugly head.
We're here, doing our jobs and not trying to rock the boat too much. We're in the minority. Fun fact, guys– not everyone in the union is a fan of it. Washington isn't a RTW state, so if you desire a job at Boeing and you're not an executive, the chances are that you'll either be in the Machinists Union or SPEEA.
Happy Easter One……….
I've worked up north in varying manufacturing positions over the last 30 years, and was never represented by a union in my entire working career. Nor would i work for a union shop by my own choosing.
I had a union in my life once…………………….but i've been happily divorced for 20+ years thank you….8^)
It's as if the NLRB watched Atlas Shrugs, Part 1 and mistook it for a field guide.
and if they weren't all mobbed up would be nice too.
there's always Starbucks to fall back on…………………………..
The only people who want a union, are the lazy slugs who want to get paid for doing nothing………………….and you can't fire them………………………because they're in the union.
well, what did they expect. union contracts aren't about the worker – they're about the union leadership and it's power and perks.
"Are people just so financially/economically retarded that they don't realize that their own employment depends on their employer's solvency?"
After seeing the goons up in Wisconsin, do you really need to have to be told that answer?
Unionism = Communism. Time for Unions to die. Pick out your favorite and start your campaign to erase it…do it today. State by state…lawsuits against Unions to bury them. Push back. Then ban govt. Unions. Bury them in lawsuits. Union organizers are especially target rich perps. Nothing more than terrorists. Push back.
If you are in a Union, you are an enemy of Freedom. And you should pay for being a traitor…Unions are Marxist Revolutions. Enema suggested. Like ID'ing the Nazi supporters in France after WW2…cutting union rats' hair might be appropriate?
we are being forced to buy chinese (inferior) products because of our debt to them. thats probably the transparent deal obama made with them.
I don't mind the "employed" part, but leave it at 18.
old enough to serve in the military, old enough to vote.
I think you're giving the Union WAY too much credit for intelligence. they'd rather see the company go under and have all of their people lay off than see the company win.
had most of you even HEARD of Airbus 20 years ago? see what happens when Unions run out of control? someone comes in from elsewhere to take up the slack.
And you have unions unreasonable demands to thank for business leaving for oversees.
Made in USA can be just as inferior a product as Made in China, when you involve union interests.
Unions are a leach on society and even on it's own membership.
rise up and educate
Unionism is a pack mentality.
They act like a pack of ravenous dogs. Trouble is they DO bite the hand that feeds them.
They are about to mindlessly screw themselves. Just as their union brothers did to the US steel industry. They picked up and moved offshore. Taking jobs and tax revenue with them.
During a probationary time, it's really best to stay Neutral….Hopefully, you're present job is better.
Thank you very much for your story. I've little doubt it has happened thousands of times.
It wasn't a bluff. Boeing did exactly what it said it would do.
Yeah I learned a very tough life lesson that day…
Keep your mouth shut when in the face of someone doing wrong or speak up or put yourself in danger to do the right thing… I wil,l always do the right thing and speak out against those abusing the system… it did cost me a lot but I have to do the right thing.
This is still a somewhat free country, Boeing has the right to do business in what ever state it chooses. If the business climate in one state isn't favorable they have a duty to their shareholders to locate in a state that will provide a more favorable climate end of story. Unions are responsible for the destruction of just as may industries and jobs in America as the corrupt politicians and their regulations. America, if you want to know why there are no jobs here just look at the unions and the government. The unions impost ridiculous work rules and make labor costs outrageously high while government regulations and taxes only add to that making the cost of doing business here unfordable so they have no choice but to move offshore or go out of business.
We cannot allow unions dictate to corporations how and where to do business any longer least we drive all manufacturing overseas.
<DIV>Boeing would have stayed but didn't get the concessions they wanted from the IAM. It happened once before when Boeingmoved its corporate headquarters to Chicago. I guess Gregoire is twice the fool.</DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV>—
Even if it was retaliation, so what? Are businesses supposed to just rollover and take it up the hinder? You cannot legislate away cause and effect.
Versus what? Contracts to AirBus…really? Watch the profit flow overseas? Nice for them, stinks for us.
Hopefully you got in somewhere else where intelligent input is valued. Tough lesson to learn for anybody; been there. Good luck to you.
One could almost say the union leaders were running a business…..hmmm, wait a minute…. D'Oh! Now WHO'S IDEA WAS THAT?
It's (the union) supposed to enact collective BARGAINING agreements, yes? Do you meant to tell me that business could actually be in the right? This has gotta have the Washington Post and NY Times wonk's britches all twisted…..LOL..
All thanks to Harper and the Conservative party, although if the Libs or NDP get their way in the next election Canada is screwed. If the Harper can't get his majority government we'll all learn just how bass ackwards the Canadian style of government is. That is if the Conservatives win a minority government the Libs and NDP will form a coalition and overthrow Harper and the Conservative. (Yes I am a political junkie I follow even Canadian politics)
Have a nice day
"…….Even if it was retaliation, so what?….."
BINGO
personally I wish it was.
It isn't to often that industry can kill two birds with one stone:
A) a smart business decision and,…….
B) clipping the overreach of unions.
What the hell? That was an over the top attack on Dan. He sounds like a kindred spirit, he even claims not to be a fan of the union. This "wuss" as you call him, is doing what he needs to do to make a living. If that means having to do things you don't like, then oh well I'll bite the bullet and keep going.
Hey Dan, if the opportunity came up to to decertify the union like they did in S.C. would you vote to do it?
Maybe a trip to South Carolina is in order, Dan!
Union Dues are nothing more that LEGAL EXTORTION.
If you want a JOB you HAVE to join the UNION,.. AND you HAVE to PAY DUES.
When I was in Unions If I could have NOT payed dues I wouldn't have payed it.
I HATE UNIONS. You want UNIONS??
Fine.
Go get a job in DETROIT. Oh,.. wait you can't.
THERE ARN'T ANY!!!
AND THE REST OF AMERICA pretty soon too.
UNIONS are Destroying America.
Look at Detroit MI to see what the UNION's AND
the DemocRAT party have planned for America.
A ONCE Great American City COMPLETELY DESTROYED
BY the DemocRAT Party and their UNION masters.
WAY to go AFL-CIO, UAW, USW, AFT,TUA, WGA and SEIU.
This IS what they WILL do to YOUR town if you LET them.
All the dealings I have had with unions have been negative. When I was part owner of a struggling lumber yard, the Laborers Union goons came in and informed us that the Lumberman's Association had a contract with them. We "had" to hire a Laborer, whether we needed one or not. But the "deal" they offered was that we didn't have to unionize our yard hand – no, instead we could "unionize" my husband (the other owner) and with a wink and a nod, all we had to do was pay the dues on time. We were a Sub-S corporation and neither of us took a regular salary and we certainly weren't under any stretch of the imagination doing the labor – that was the job of our two yard hands. My husband threw them out and we never did "unionize." The previous owner had negotiated the same deal for himself as the token "laborer" of the Laborers Union. I hate corruption and this was corrupt to the core. The great thing was, they never came back. The agreement had no teeth.
Our driver had a severe heart attack and decided to retire – he had to fight tooth and nail to get the pension he'd paid into for years and years from the Teamsters. Everyone knows that the mob used the Teamsters' Central States Pension Fund to launder money.
Another time when I worked for a bank, a mob of union goons (probably SEIU) came storming through the office complex where I worked demanding some fool thing or another. It was truly creepy.
I've run into these losers at the grocery stores (Fresh 'n' Easy), picketing new construction (Carpenters' Union, who hires non-union people to picket – HA!), and the UFW picketing against people buying grapes. Thanks to the influence of the public employee unions in California, they are systematically destroying the state and stealing everything they can get their hands on… No, I oppose unions and especially public employee unions. I have yet to see anything good they do.
All part of the plan.
It must be nice on your high horse up there. How's the weather?
In a New York minute.
Unfortunately, most of the rank and file here are generational and institutionalized. Fathers and grandfathers before them were in the union, and the current generations know of no other way. These are people who would NEVER survive in a non-union job, and it's at once laughable and sad. These types actually spend time and energy bashing the company that provides them an excellent job and benefits, while acting like it's the union leadership that signs their paychecks.
What Mr. Quanzaa above doesn't realize is that to even hint at making a stand means to make your working life a living hell. Being branded a "scab" in a union stronghold is to become a figurative Hester Prynne, and while there are company policies that deal with harassment, none of your peers would ever advocate for you. In fact, the one time these goons would perpetrate siding with the company is when an overwhelming force of them brings a bogus complaint against you in retaliation for your stance.
So, if a viable number of people started rumblings of decertifying, I'd be all over it. It's just not going to happen.
Appreciate the response Dan, and the time you took to post it. You balance conviction and pragmatism beautifully. This unfair life forces these kinds of decisions on all of us on a daily basis. What a crystal clear, and powerful observation from someone inside the belly of the beast. If this makes you a "Wuss" count me in.
One more thing; Congrats to Boeing receiving the contract from the U.S. Air Force for the next-gen. refueling tanker. that was a win not only for Boeing, and American workers, but it was a win for America period.
I had written my Congressmen, and Senators on that issue. I literally jumped for joy the day of the announcement.
Or you could just look at the evidence,
This society based on strong free market principles and limited government power has produced the most successful economy and benefits all men more than any other at any time in the past.
On the other hand you have the collectivists, where you find more poverty, less freedom and less wealth than anywhere else.
The thing about the free market is that it works, it is mans nature and it always works.
Yet Greenspan admitted he was partially wrong in his ideology. I wouldn't say it always works…there are obviously those once in a hundred year financial tsunamis that throw a crook in that theory.
I still don't see that wanting perhaps more regulations that you might want is "collectivism." I think financial companies need to have sufficient “surveillance'' on their trading counterparties to prevent just this kind of thing…even if it only occurs infrequently.
For me, there's a lot of room in between being either a free market capitalist OR a socialist.
I do not advocate zero government and zero regulations, of course some degree of oversight and monitoring is necessary; people cheat. Cheating of course is not the free market now is it?
Just look at what we face today, the housing market, financials, auto manufacturing, education, all failing and these things all have what in common? Excessive government regulation and controls.
The free market always works, when the buyer and the seller agree to the price this is a win win. This is basic.
"The free market always works, when the buyer and the seller agree to the price this is a win win. This is basic."
Yeah, but life isn't a farmer's market. I'll try to take comfort in your words when I'm old and tell my insurance company that I don't agree to the price of their monthly premiums. Then, I'll just have to go find that cheaper, less benefits-insurance and hope I can agree to that price.
And I would submit that the financial situation is a result of not enough oversight. "Cheating is not the free market?" Sorry, you lost me there.
Farmers market? How is it not?
So you mean for the state to force the insurers to pay for your treatment. Do you not believe it is fair for you to pay your own way? No you just want the rich to pay because you believe you can make them. This is thievery.
"Cheating is not the free market?"
There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.
As a Professional Firefighter who works in MD, I can say that most "Union" firefighters would be considered conservative, even if they're registered Democrat. Each Local handles its own business with their respective county and they reach mutual agreements, usually agreeable between both parties.
Most public-sector Firefighter and Police Union members want to go to work, get a respectable wage, and feel like they're not going to be hung out to dry should they get injured while on duty. We're not greedy bastards looking for handouts or 'something for nothing'. I can only speak for my Union and our relationship with our county government but all of my Union brothers pay a portion of their salaries towards healthcare and retirement. We can't strike either, unlike Wisconsin teachers!
When making blanket "Public-sector Unions suck" comments, just remember that the Fire or Police Union member is most likely someone just like you.
Wrong assumption. Yes, I believe it is fair for me to pay for my own way. I've never NOT paid my own way.
You say that the free market always works, when the buyer and the seller agree to the price this is a win win.
I'm saying that isn't always true; that it's simply not reality. Monopolies DO exist, price gouging exists. Market speculation driving up prices exists. I still think you're a bit of a Utopian.
If you see life as a Farmer's Market. I see it as a Farmer's market in which one has to be careful not to step in dog doodoo.
But thanks for the exchange. I trust that you know not ALL liberals are parasites.
If you call for the state to force healthcare providers to provide a service at a price they do not agree to this is enslavement.
Virginia is a right to work state. We would welcome Boeing with open arms and tax incentives. Carpetbaggers should take note that they will not be welcome.
Boeing did stay. The 787 production facility is still there. Nobody lost their job. What Boeing did was decide to open a second plant somewhere else. For that, the NLRB issued a complaint, as if Boeing was somehow obligated to open a new plant and provide union jobs in Washington.
I honestly would suggest that you read "Griftopia" and "Econned." They're about reality rather than Utopia.
Can't very well move an entire plant like Everett but they did the next best thing; they built another one elsewhere, much to the IAM's chagrin. Now if they can only start delivering 787s. And yes, Gregoire is still an election-stealing fool.—
If you call for the state to force healthcare providers to provide a service at a price they do not agree to this is enslavement.
This is reality. It is you who refuse to face it.
Oh and look, here comes more proof of your ignorance and greed.
Under Obamacare, a 15 member panel known as the Medicare Independent Payment Advisory Board (IPAB) was created to ‘oversee healthcare costs’. This panel consists of individuals appointed by the President and confirmed by Congress – two ingredients that make it highly unlikely that they would be truly independent. In addition, there is no requirement that members be practicing physicians which is a recipe for cuts that are highly likely to affect the delivery of quality individualized patient care.
Under his deficit reduction plan, the President proposes to expand the power of this unelected entity to increase the GDP growth per capita cut from the current 1% to 5%. In addition, under his proposal Medicaid payments to states would also be tightly controlled and access to drugs would be limited through spending on prescription drugs.
Price controls. Limitations on services and medical supplies, rationing end. of. story.
Listen to me statist, look around you and enjoy your company, Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Mao ZeDung, Castro. Failures each and every one. How many deaths in total at the hands of these men? Answer me this statist! I do not believe you have the guts to do so.
And look at the prosperity created by capitalism and the free market.
I repeat, there are none so blind as those who refuse to see.
Now go away I will waste no more time on you.
"Answer me this statist!"
How funny….you actually talk like a character straight out of an Ayn Rand novel….
Asking for more oversight and regulations on those financial institutions like Goldman Sachs that are "a great vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity, relentlessly jamming its blood funnel into anything that smells like money" (courtesy of Matt Taibbi) doesn't equate to Marxism, Communism, or Socialism.
And there are none so paranoid as those who see things that aren't there.
While traditional tourism requires significant investments in hotels, roads, etc., extreme tourism requires much less to jump-start a business. In addition to traditional travel-based tourism destinations, various exotic attractions are suggested, such as flyovers in MiGs at Mach 2.5, ice diving in the White Sea, or travelling across the Chernobyl zone.
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