Health Care and the Left’s Perverted Definition of ‘Rights’
by Kerry J. ByrneOne way that leftists have managed to keep alive their dead, defeated, bankrupting theories on issues like so-called health care is by perverting the definition of very basic terms.
The word “right” is one of the most glaring examples of a definition that’s been distorted by the intellectual house-of-horrors mirror that is leftist theory.
Image: CATO Institute
Every American has the “right” to health care they argue.
They’re right. Every American does have a right to health care. In fact, they have that “right” right now. They have the right to buy insurance. They have the right to not buy insurance. They have the right to pay out of pocket. They have the right get a second opinion. They have the right to rub a little dirt on it and suck it up. They have a right to help out a friend in need.
What they don’t have is the “right” to health care in the perverted leftist sense of the word.
A “right,” in the traditional American lexicon laid out by the likes of Thomas Jefferson, is something that exists by virtue of our humanity. It is “inalienable” and we are endowed with these rights by our creator. No government or institution has the power to take away these rights. You exist, therefore these rights exist.
In the leftist sense of the word, though, a “right” is something very different. In fact, it’s not a “right” at all: it’s a handout provided to you by government, often at exorbitant costs to society.
“I have the ‘right’ to health care!” the leftists demand angrily. “Therefore, the government must provide it for me!”
Rights, in other words, are not innate to your humanity in leftist theory. Instead, rights are bequeathed to you like party favors by political Big Brothers: here’s a do-nothing job for Uncle Henry, here’s a tax exemption for a big donor and … oh, look, here’s some discounted healthcare for members of the big unions that support me.
The “right” to health care in leftist theory, then, is not something that you possess inalienably by virtue of your humanity. Instead, a “right” to them is a dehumanizing tragedy in the making.
The government that gives you your “right” to health care can just as easily deny you that so-called “right” to health care. They can take it away at anytime: if you end up in the wrong column of an actuarial chart, if you vote the wrong way, or, hell, in the very likely event that the system goes bankrupt, the government will be in a position to deny what once was your inalienable “right” to health care. Remember, the Soviet Union declared that its citizens had the right to everything from a home to a job. How’d that work out for them?
“B-b-b-b-b-but!,” scream the leftists. “Insurance companies can already deny you health care.”
No, they can’t. Insurance companies are certainly part of the problem. We’ve grown to depend on them too much and on ourselves too little. The system does need to be fixed.
But insurance companies cannot deny you the inalienable ”right” to health care. They do not have that power. They can only choose not to pay for certain procedures. You can still find another insurance company, seek help in a different state, find a charitable doctor to pay for it, benefit from a fundraiser or, worst-case scenario, benefit from the generosity of a well-funded, for-profit private health care institution.
After all, you still have the “right” to find that care. Even in a worst-case scenario in the current system, you only need the means.
But when government monopolizes the system, when government first decides what kind of care you’ll get, and when government next decides if they’ll even pay for it, your right to health care no longer exists.
At best, your rights will be forced underground into a health care black market: doctors illegally providing care in a cash-only medical economy – but probably one better than the legit “health care” system where patients have no rights but those regally gifted to them by the lords of big government (who, themselves, will never be denied care).
Look at Canada: it already has a vibrant cash-only medical economy. It’s called the U.S. health care system.
Your “right” to health care already exists. Don’t let the leftist and their perverted definition of the word take it away.
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260 Comments
As Judge Napolitano put it: Health care is a commodity not a "right".
I have a "right" to not be forced to provide your "right".
Modern government has strayed from its mission of protecting rights. Nowadays it's about "fairness," a nebulous concept the application of which has proven to be quite antithetical to protecting rights.
This metamorphosis of government's mission has been given the stamp of approval every step of the way by our so-called Constitutional defenders on the Supreme Court.
How about this idea: Anything that requires someone else to give you something is NOT a right. It's charity.
These are nothing but progressive views by radicals whom don't even know what it is they associate themselves with! I would like to know when Americans are going to rise up and tell politicians to STOP? When are they going to hold politicians feet to the flame to back up what they say that these are rights and SHOW US where in the Constitution it states that!? Worst off many that jump on this bandwagon don't realize this "click" they want to be a part of won't include them in the "final party" when the dust clears, these wannabe's will be cast to the side too. Ones like McCaines daughter don't realize they are being used and the words they throw around they haven't comprehended their meaning.
I have a name for all these wanna be progressives…
Cannon Fodder
They really dont get it, they will be 'thrown to the lions' by their own kind when the day comes.
Enough of that though I must go after republicans sitting idly by. Sorry they are, I haven't seen any republicans screaming their heads off on the House or Senate floor, seen walkouts or heard about any of them launching major Constitutional challenges to the radical machine being put in place. IMO the more the repubs sit quietly by while OUR REPUBLIC is systematically changed the more I believe they are nothing but a pack of RINO's on their way to extinction! Our founding fathers if they were here today would look on these men and women in disgust and shaking their heads in disgust at the American people! I truly believe that; remember they literally signed a death warrant on July 4th 1776 they were prepared to put their lives on the line for a better FREE life. Now today Americans take it for granted.
Will it take your precious American Idol or maybe Family Guy to be censored or canceled for you and your neighbors to wake up? No that wont happen right (This is America that will never happen… says who?)… maybe when your at the doctors office/hospital with your little one who is ill and your wait is 3 times longer it will click in your head; by then it will be too late! Remember this if they getaway with making this HC a right then that will open the doors for everything else to be a 'right' as well. You don't really think they will stop there do you. Next thing will be education, jobs, housing, food, internet etc make them all rights , that was tried in other lands and failed!
WAKE UP! Patriots I ask what are you prepared to do http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F452KybPEnQ ? This is the question you must seriously ask yourself and your family! Don't play their game… STOP and play your game through http://www.savingtherepublic.com
Yes for sure WE the People have rights. We also have the right to refusal! One thing we don't need is Government run Health Care. Examples of Gov't run is abundant all around us. The Postal Service is in complete collapse for cryin out loud. The school system, Medicare…Fannie n Freddie…I could go on and on but I won't! Let the free market do it's thing!
The Conservative Edge
I guess high speed internet falls in the last group?
It is a shame that the original "life, liberty, and property" was changed. Much of what has happened to date is because of a lack of respect for property. On the other hand, can you imagine the mortgage mess if the right to property was twisted to meet certain ends?
The progressive left does not understand the difference between an inalienable human right, and the socialist ideal of redistribution of assets to establish “fairness”.
I have individual rights and am free to decide if I do or dont want health insurance. I understand Obamacare exempts christian scientists and the amish from being forced to buy in. First "civil" rights stole private property rights from individuals and its been a proverbial slippery slope. As when the left justifies forcing you to buy health insurance because they weere able to earlier pass laws to force you to buy auto insurance. Sometimes i think the govt. is insurance.
If its a right then………
1.you must eat to stay alive…..new right
2.you must have water….new right
3.No clothes could freeze to death…new right
4.got to have a job to pay for health care…new right
rights come from your creator….not men and women in government…then again the left does worship the President..
Health care is a commodity, and everyone has the right to have it if they want it. Just like a $20,000,000.00 mansion is a commodity and everybody has the right to own one. It is called the right to pursue happiness. Key Word: PURSUE. You can have these things if you pursue them; in other words, do the work required to achieve them.
A right cannot exist where it creates an obligation for someone else. Period.
Until this ideal returns to the core of the thinking of the majority of people and becomes a driving principal behind our government, we're going to be doomed.
I love what Walter Williams said recently about taxation and entitlements: "Absent Santa Claus or the tooth fairy, the only way government can give one American a dollar in the name of this or that good thing is by taking it from some other American by force."
keep and bear arms – I won't buy your S&W
use your free speech – I won't make your sign
pursue happiness – I won't give you tickets to Disney World
stay healthy – I won't pay for YOUR health insurance
I will and do donate to good causes – to force me to is tyranny
FDR, that icon of the progressive movement gave gave us, or, tried to give us the so called second bill of rights…
The progressive left has been insidioulsy twisting the words of our founding documents to come up with entirely new definitions. Prime example: Freedom OF religion has become Freedom FROM religion. When you hear them use terms like 'fairness' and 'justice', get ready for the twist.
Botom line: FREEDOM to choose, FREEDOM to excell, FREEDOM to achieve the heights of success are in the hands of each of us, if we are willing to work and to sacrifice to achieve them. FREEDOM is an alien concept to the social justice, equal distribution crowd. They start from the premise that they are OWED something just for showing up. They feel an entitlement for just having been born into this great nation without the sense of what it has take, the struggles to succeed, the sacrifices that have been made to preserve the FREEDOM to become what WE choose.
This SH!T has got to stop, and it has to STOP NOW!! We are just one simple step from a precipice that once we cross over, there will be no going back. NOVEMBER IS COMING, MAKE YOUR VOICE HEARD!
Methinks you're getting a bit radical here.
You've not seen Republicans fighting health care ? Where have you been since Sen Brown got elected ? Do you not realize that the Republicans only recently got enough votes in Congress to be able to carry on a fillibuster. I'm seeing Republicans (not all of them all the time, but all of them when it it really matters) blocking the progressives in congress time and time again. Now that the progressives want to use reconciliation (50+1) to pass health care, the Republicans are planning an 'amendment marathon' to continue the pressure on Obama.
I get the distinct impression the Republicans are fighting a delaying action until re-inforcements can arrive with the November vote.
You've not seen them raise major constitutional challenges to a PROPOSED BILL because every time they do, the Dems claim the bill is not final yet and it will be 'fixed' before being passed. SCOTUS cannot rule on a law that has not yet been passed, but several Republicans as well as several Attorney's General have stated that if this passes, they will be raising constitutional challenges.
If the Republicans were 'just rolling over' please explain to me why the White House & MSM are doing a full-court-press to pass this beast and claiming they are being balked by the Republican 'Obstructionism'.
The Dems are running scared because they know that most of them are on VERY thin ice with their constituents if they've not already gone to far supporting this garbage. That's not being mentioned much by the WH & MSM because the Dems want to keep up an appearance of solidarity. There's an Easter break coming up that should allow the Dems to get a fresh dose of people's opinion that should go a long way toward putting a stake in this health-care-zombie.
"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others." ~~ Ayn Rand
"Do not ever say that the desire to 'do good' by force is a good motive. Neither power-lust nor stupidity are good motives." ~~ Ayn Rand
"It only stands to reason that where there's sacrifice, there's someone collecting the sacrificial offerings. Where there's service, there is someone being served. The man who speaks to you of sacrifice is speaking of slaves and masters, and intends to be the master." ~~ Ayn Rand
Most people do NOT feel the need for entitlements. Most people do NOT accept entitlements. They DO have the right to decent health care without having to worry about how they will pay for it, whether they can afford it or not. Most of the poster on this page are cold-hearted a-holes.
I agree with your husband on the 'right' for someone else to provide you medical care, but you still have the 'right' to health-care – you just have to provide it to yourself.
…so I can agree that there is a 'right' to health care without using the qualification of 'provided by the government' that the liberals/progressives tack on by assumption. It's this unstated assumption of government provision on the part of the liberals that causes me to do a '180' on 'health care rights'.
We have a right to freedom, and the socialist government healthcare mandates and commissions will take that away.
Government taxes are going up faster than premiums on health insurance, I'd rather give it to the insurance companies and keep my freedom. Duh.
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When your so called "rights" cost everyone else their God given rights to freedom and liberty, then they can hardly be called rights at all.
They will deny services based on government fiat and rationing. I want to decide, not get Pelosi's permission.
If you're not a connected democrat or union member- no kidney transplant for you! That's what Castro, Chavez, Stalin, Mao, and the European countries do. They're already playing big favorites in the negotiations and wrangliing! Welcome to Dantes inferno.
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You're so right mjkag!
Our rights will be preempted for someone else's idea of "fairness" and whoever the current tyrant happens to be.
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You are so right. John Galt is smiling upon you.
Our moral obligation is to our own self interest. If someone doesn't care enough about their own well being, why should we?
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You are so right. Government spending is not charity. It should remain government spending and not be used to bribe the electorate for votes.
And, before a single person ever gets their health care rationed, Nancy Pelosi better already be flying commercial!
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I look at it this way: you certainly have the right to keep yourself as healthy as possible (what you're calling right to health care), but when you get appendicitis (or something else similar), there isn't any way you can provide that kind of care to yourself.
You are so right.
Used to be everything was allowed unless prohibited. Paradigm now is everything is prohibited unless explicitly allowed.
And it's all based on Big Gov's notion of what is "fair".
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So this Obama health Care will alter your wallet,..current system…persons who are in an accident,… how???/
[...] from Big Government by Kerry J. Byrne: One way that leftists have managed to keep alive their dead, defeated, [...]
I love that at least 10 states are moving to challenge Federal HC mandates.
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Except the left conveniently ignores that one does not have to own an automobile, and the laws mandating car insurance are state-based, not federal. Also, auto insurance operates findamentally differently than health insurance does. You own auto insurance to protect other drivers from yourself and vice versa. It only pays out in the advent of a catastrophe of some sort. When they decide to mandate health insurance, they leave out the idea that we have no option to avoid this except death, as that's the only way we can avoid needing health care. That's a little more extreme than simply not owning a car.
No medical marijuana?
No boats, no lights, no motorcar; not a single HDTV? Oh my!
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Name a person or persons that you can name by name and location that was taken to a hospital and denied care until the insurance info could be found…
Translation: We have the right to free health care no matter who has to actually pay for it, and see how I'm not a big mean poopie head like the rest of you?
You are so right. We have a right to freedom and to be left alone and not have the government in our faces, or in our wallets.
Constitution is there to protect us against governments like the current one, that's why Obama is having such a tough time – he no like.
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My, HLB, you sure are practicing hard at twisting conservative economic principles to fit your socialist progressive world view.
I wish people would understand we are moving toward no choice in anything.
Well, it depends on how you define "insurance" as a meta-concept.If you get excessively Heinleinian, where insurance is essentially a form of gambling, then government can be seen as insurance.
You pay a "premium" (taxes) against having "claims" for personal and property rights (the court and legal system), as well as "disaster insurance" (the armed forces) against foreign challenges to said rights.
The question of course is whether you consider the premiums too high in respect to the risks, and whether or not the insurance company (government) keeps screwing you over with deductibles (entitlements for someone else), constant rate increases (additional taxes and fees), and changes to the basic policy terms (mandates and the like).
Mind you, it takes a particular way of viewing insurance to see government as the same, but that is pretty much what Heinlein spells out in "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress".
The Bill of Rights is not the Bill of Wants.
My socialists view of the world. I am LMAO. Conservative principles are for individual responsibility and not to pass your individual obligations to society. I guess you do not follow this principles. Have you ever looked up hypocrite in the dictionary. If you do you will see your picture.
Please feel free to send all your monetary assets to anyone who needs help….but to FORCE another free person to do the same is theft….it doesn't matter if you think that person is cold-hearted or not….if you do not comprehend freedom such as this you only have yourself to blame………
Who said I was in favor of Pelosi's plan. The author of this article was touting the freedom to be uninsured. Well, his "freedom" is affecting my wallet and I do not like it any more than paying taxes. So what is needed is a plan to encourage employers and their employees to pay for health insurance. I am tired of paying for blood sucking leeches.
Excuse me Ralph, but my wallet is already being affected. You see, any conservative will agree, there is no such thing as a free lunch. So the hospitals pass down the costs of the uninusered to the persons who can pay their tab and the government does the same thing. And where did I say I was in favor of Obama care.
Exactly. Our rights should have a limit, and that limit is when it infringes on someone else. We all have a right to spend our time and money as we see fit. If I feel that charitable giving is something that I want to do, then I can give as much as I want to whom I want; that belief in giving should not be forced on anyone else nor controlled by anyone else.
Uncle same should not force me to give in order to help someone else get free health care; if my philanthropic goal is to buy mittens for Ecuadorian chipmunks, then that is what I should spend MY money on.
Apparently, it's also a 'right' to take the hard earned money of one individual, and give it to another individual. Likewise, it is a 'right' to kill the unborn for any reason whatsoever. So many fun 'rights' on the Left! Weee!
So you are okay with forcing medical providers to give emergency care services to everyone, using that to justify forcing everyone to contribute to health insurance, proclaiming that a conservative principle of individual responsibility, and then you suggest others look up the word "hypocrite"?
Let me suggest you look up the acronym GIGO.
Can you read? It is AGAINST THE LAW FOR A HOSPITAL TO REFUSE ANYONE EMERGENCY MEDICAL CARE. As a result they must pass the costs of the uninsured to their other paying customers. So we have a dilemma. If you do not want to pick up the tab for the persons who are so irresponsible they do not want to carry insurance, then the hospitals must be able to refuse care if a person can not prove they are financially able to pay for the costs. Otherwise, you have people scamming the system and passing their costs down to other persons. So much for conservative principles. The author of this article must be in favor of welfare mamas.
I never said I was in favor of forcing the hospitals to provide emergency care. But you certainly have a real problem if they can refuse persons based upon the ability to pay. Let's say, you are in an accident, which is not your fault, and your spouse grabbed your wallet out of the car. So when the ambulance comes, you are unconcious and have no proof of insurance. Hmmm. I do not like that scenario, but since you can not prove you have the abiltiy to pay, the ambulance should be able to drive away, leaving you there.
Health care is not a right. It is a service by which the service provider obtains his/her property. To say you have a right to another persons service is to say you effectively have a right to his/her property. This is slavery pure and simple. This is also what the government does is the act of collecting taxes. If you don't think taxes are slavery just try opting out of them.
So you are not in favor of it but we have a problem if we do not do it so we have to do it.
And because we have to do that, we have to force people to buy health insurance.
You do not "really" support it, but you can construct wonderful horror scenarios to show that you really Have No Choice (TM), and so there it is.
Uh huh.
No, Dave they are worse than that. They are misguided hypocrites. They are for "individual liberty" as long as their liberty can pass down the costs of their health care costs to other persons who will be forced to pick up their tab. They are no different than the welfare mamas or unisured illegal immigrants that are scamming their system they allegedly love.
Well, your "choice" to be ininsured is affecting my wallet because I carry insurance that I pay for and I am tired of paying for the costs the hospitals are forced to pass down to me. So if you firmly believe in your "choice", if you do not carry insurance, I want you to refuse medical care if you are injured in an accident. I do not care if this accident is not your fault. There is absolutely no proof that the person who caused the accident has the ability to pay for your injuries.
Or, get rid of Medicare, SS, minimum slave wages and 50% of government, and the people can now AFFORD to pay out of pocket for healthcare! Medicare denies more patients coverage than almost ALL private insurers. Neat huh? Mandated insurance, add in regulated pricing and finite money, you got a recipe for disaster. What happens to this system when we run out of money? No matter what Valerie "I love communists" Jarret tells you, we don't have infinite money, and there is no such thing as a free lunch. Would you like the government telling you how much you can earn? Give tax breaks to doctors who volunteer for free clinics. Lets rely on the charity of the American people, instead of relying on mandates from the government.
We have all heard of some of the improvements that could be implemented without using the unconstitutional means Obama promises like; insurance companies competing across state lines, tort reform and cutting out fraud, but we could do more.
We can't just deny coverage for an uninsured person who is in serious condition, but we CAN stop giving coverage to uninsured people who come in for every little sniffle they have and who do so because they know they are not going to pay anyway. If they come in on a stretcher then treat them, if not then they better have insurance or cash or they can get lost. One of the biggest drains by uninsured people are illegal aliens, no coverage for them would make a huge dent in our premium costs. When uninsured people do get treatment and don't pay then we should streamline a system where their assets can be taken to pay off their debt to the hospital so they have some skin in the game rather than soaking the system. If we did these things our premiums would come down far enough that many of those who are not currently able to afford insurance would be able to.
between 1956, to 1964 working as roofer my father was able to pay for the birth of his 6 children in cash, and emergency care for his 2 year old (me) when i almost died from pneumonia, he also paid in cash (or sometimes trade) for our GP Dr. Chan. county hospital was free at the time, but means tested, and not the greatest of care (it was paid for out of a county assessment)
can you tell me why we can't do this now. did insurance company's drive up the cost? (maybe partially) is it HMO'S (not sure, but the HMO is a government creation) i know the main problem is a web of progressive state and federal laws, regulations, and policy's regulating the medical field, and the medical insurance industry that is responsible for the bulk of the cost, as well as our governments outright refusal to deal with our illegal immigrant problem…..
and this government wants to make health care better? tell me how that works?
Liberals' demands for certain "rights" invariably results in another person's subjugation. For instance, my right to free speech does not require another person to publish my views or my right to free exercise of religion does not require another person to build me a church. If every single person in America refuses to assist me or agree with me, I still have those rights and can worship and speak alone on a street corner if needed.
But the "right" to healthcare is worthless if no doctor will treat me or the "right" to housing if nobody will build me a house or the "right" to food if no farmer will harvest crops. The only way these "rights" can exist is if the government forces another person to work for you whether they want to or not.
And what do we call it when a person is forced to work for another whether they want to or not?
No. Both of you are wrong. If taxes are cut, spending is cut, government is cut, working Americans will have MORE money in their pockets to do with as they wish. Only a complete moron would assume the government could use their money better than they could. I dare you to find ANYONE who will say this. If I force you to by something, with threat of incarceration, how can you say you are "free to choose"? lemme ask this HLB. If mandates are passed, and you can't afford insurance, who's gonna pay for it? Oh, right, taxpayers are! We will STILL be paying for uninsured, NOTHING will ahve changed, and we'll have a huge new bureacracy to pay for.
You are living in a dream world. Hospital costs can quickly mount to hundreds of thousands of dollars. Persons who do not have insurance are forcing everyone to pay for their costs. This is not "freedom". It is people scamming the system. As far as illegal aliens, if they have insurance, I would rather have them treated then turn them away. You see, they are one more pocket the hospitals can pass the costs of the ininsured.
This is another topic. The author of this article was complaining his "freedoms were being eroded". One of those freedoms, was his freedom to not have insurance. In other words, the freedom to pass responsibility for his health to other persons.
Your rant has nothing, I repeat nothing to do with whether someone is or is not scamming the system by being uninsured. When persons accept responsibility, whether it is for the children they bear or the costs of their medical care, your taxes will go down. After all, you are so correct, there is no such thing as a free lunch.
Most of the people on this board are hard working self reliant folks who not only have to pay for themselves, but end up having to pay for entitlements for lazy people (ie people who vote democrat/socialist). We are called heartless and greedy for being responsible and refusing to be forced to pay for others while a-holes like you are the real greedy people wanting to steal what others have EARNED because you are too lazy to take care of yourselves. Everyone has the right to decent health care…..IF THEY PAY FOR IT!
Until you get rid of the worthless POS that inhabit the urban areas little will change. No matter where they go…..country, municipality, state, county, village wherever they are a scourge on the people who carry the water and work for a living. The American public has spent over 40 TRILLION DOLLARS on their worthless asses and we are still counting. Enough…enough…. Get with the program or leave the country.
"Pelosi better already be flying commercial!"
What, her broom is not good enough?
As usual, you don't make sense.The fact that hospitals must receive and treat all emergency cases is another example of government intrusion, not a personal choice.While you denigrate the government on one hand, you're more than willing for them to pass the costs of insuring the uninsured to employers, instead of abandoning universal healthcare.
Hospital costs do not usually mount to hundreds of thousands of dollars quickly.Costs of this nature are usually only realized by terminally ill patients, mounting over time, not overnight.
So, now all of a sudden, you're in favor of a limited, decentralized government that won't intrude into our personal lives on a daily basis?The current regime in power is guilty of this more and more everyday, wouldn't you agree?
\\ Hanzo \\
You're the freaking hypocrite.You post inane comments defending the most idiotic Progressive policies, so enamored of BHO are you, then when it behooves you, you think you can be a Conservative for a day and rail against everyone who disagrees with you and call them a hypocrite?You're only running your big mouth because BHO is gonna' get even deeper into your pocketbook.I've got news for you, neophyte, this has been going on since he's been in office, and it's NOT gonna' stop.Wow, so reality hit you in the face for once, ha ha. /Hanzo/
Who is paying for your lack of insurance. I am. If you can not afford it, then move to a smaller house, do not eat out, better yet, cry me a river. I bet you just love to rant against the welfare mamas, but you just love having society picking up your tab for YOUR healthcare. Go to a dictionary and look up the definition of hypocrite. Well, I am sick and tired of paying for the welfare mamas and the conservtards like you who scam the system to benefit themselves.
Once again, you're the biggest hypocrite here, and a liar to boot.Tout some more Progressive BS and tell us how wrong Conservatism is, then come on here and gripe about the costs associated with these Progressive boondoggles.Then tell us we're in favor of having others pay for our medical bills.You're a putz.
Besides, idiot, the "system", as it is, was set up by your own big spending Progressives you support in every election, f'' ing moron.What an imbecile you are, as if you've not already been exposed as an incompetent already anyway……….Hanzo
Tell me,a-hole, where is the right to free healthcare spelled out in the Constitution? ~Hanzo
What a crock. Let me help you out, Hanzo. Who is picking up the tab for the uninsured. Hmmm. So what is your solution big boy? If someone comes to a hospital, in critical condition and they do not have insurance, the hospital should be able to say, TS call or see your chaplain. Hospital costs do not usually mount to hundreds of thousands of dollars. Well, the average stay for one day in intensive care is more than $15-20,000 per day. I am sure this is chump change for you knowing your level of intelligence, but for most persons, they have a real difficult time pulling this out of their wallet. The problem you have is you can not see just how hypocritical it is to assert individuals should not rely on society to pick up their tab, but it is fine and dandy for society to pick up your health care costs.
What bizarro world do you live in? Most people do NOT accept entitlements? On this Earth? Human nature Dave, people will line up for miles for a free lunch. Why is it cold-hearted to expect one to take care of one's self if one is able? I bet you think you're better than people like me and others on here because you think you CARE more than we do about people. How arrogant and how wrong you are. You libs are all like little children hunting for unicorns. You have no thought or any regard for what it takes to produce a service that people want or need, and that's what healthcare is Dave, a service, a commodity, that is provided at a cost to you. Do you own a car? Do you own a home, or rent one? Do you have insurance for those things? That is not provided by the government and they work very well. They are market-based commodities that offer a myriad of coverages for different prices to suit what you need and can afford. Get it straight ace, people like you who want to take this country down a hole it could never climb out of just to satisfy some childish sense of fairness are the REAL A-Holes.
Do I have the "right" to have the same bonuses as insurance CEO's?Do I have the "right" to the same medical program Congress gets?Does the US government have the "right" to take over 1/6th of our economy?Do I still have the "right" to question my government? "Knock,knock","Who is it?""Interpol. Open up!"
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When you rely on name calling, it simply shows how weak your argument is. Obviously, you never took Debate 101.
Since you are so brilliant, let me ask you something:
Where does the insurance money to pay for healthcare for the insured come from?
A) Exclusively from the premiums of the person receiving the healthcare
B) Magically generated when the premiums are paid
C) From a pool of all payers, using the interest generated by investing their premiums
Since you obviously do not know, the answer is C). That means even when you use healthcare from insurance, you are almost always using money from others to pay for your healthcare.
So really when you say you do not want to pay for the healthcare costs of others and so demand everyone get heath insurance, what you are really saying is you want more people to contribute to a pool to help pay your personal healthcare costs.
Your genoristy is duly noted.
I don't expect anyone to pay for my healthcare costs.Most people are not admitted to ICU when going to the hospital, and what do you think the average stay in the ICU is?
Which way do you want it, anyway?You seem very conflicted.On one hand, you support every other massive welfare boondoggle from your Progressive pals.On the other hand, you don't want to pay for it.
Where did I say I wanted society to pick up my healthcare costs?Do you have me confused with someone else?Or are you just confused? <Hanzo>
If Obama wants to redistribute the tax revenue to those who are not contributing to the common good, those who pay taxes should start a union of our own,,,and go on strike!!
No, I am not saying I want you you pay for my health care costs. This is why I pay insurance. Your example is simply not logical because if I did not have insurance, but paid the bill on time and in full, then somehow someone would be picking up my tab. Sorry. However, I am picking up the tab for the individuals who do not have insurance because the hospitals have to pass this costs down to their paying customers. Now go back listening to Rusty the Chickenhawk and Glenn the Idiot for further instructions.
Yes, you're a hypocrite."Who wants to stop payments to the welfare mamas, but pass…….. blah freakin' blah".I don't know, who? Not me.Who came up with these nefarious schemes in the first place, giving out entitlements in order to enslave generation after generation to poverty on the government dole, in exchange for votes?You and your ilk, that's who.
Does the "New Deal", or the "Great Society" ring a bell, you progressive sycophant?You're still a nutcase, just a pissed off nutcase because you finally realize you've been had by your political heroes.Must suck to be you. >Hanzo<
Blah blah.Give me a break.The very first time I came across your idiotic posts you engaged in ad hom attacks before anyone, right off the bat.Have you changed your tactics because every time you post a comment you're schooled by someone on this site?
So go ahead and refute my comments.You can't, hence the hissy fit about debating in a proper manner, what a joke. >Hanzo<
My example is how insurance works. You may not like how it functions, but that is not going to change the reality of it.
If you want more people paying in to insurance pools, then the effect is to have more people to pick up your health care costs, as well as having more people pay insurance premiums to cover the costs of the uninsured that still exist.
That you also want everyone to pay taxes to pay insurance premiums for people who cannot otherwise afford them just increases the number of people you want to have pay into the pool that is used to cover your health care costs.
As for your descriptions of "Rusty" and "Glenn":
"When you rely on name calling, it simply shows how weak your argument is. Obviously, you never took Debate 101."
Indeed.
No, I am proposing that we go to a system where we take the responsibility to pay for our own medical costs. You know based upon the good ol' conservative principles. If you want a solution, it can begin with mandating companies either pay for their employees health insurance or a combination thereof or they pay an exise tax for refusing to have this coverage. Oh, I know the conservtards will scream, but I am tired of paying a hidden tax for their lack of coverage every time I get medical care. The money raised can be used to pay for a credit for the uninsured to pay for a portion of their insurance costs. This way, they have a financial incentive to stay healthy.
Liberal Economics
You can quote story after story of the 'inequities' of our present medical delivery system, and each more heartbreaking than the one before. I would agree that our sysem is totally effed up. But you are not addressing the reason it cost so much. It costs so much BECAUSE the government got in the middle. Also because our government lacks the will to enforce its immigration laws.
We are a compassioneate people which is why we will never refuse medical treatment in an emergency but if you forgot your wallet at home, has no basis for not getting it at some point, your argument there is just completely stupid.
cont…..
If you want people taking responsibility to pay for their own medical costs, then you would want to eliminate insurance entirely. If people want to invest money to use for health care costs, they should do it on their own, and not pay some third party company that might decide not to allow their claims to get in the way.
Mandating companies pay for something is strictly interventionist.
Assessing an excise tax if they do not pay is strictly interventionist.
The reason medicine costs so much is a huge combination of factors but chief among them is the idea that it is FREE. Any time you give something away for free it gets abused. If you want more of something, subsidize it, if you want less of something tax the hell out of it. Simple, immutable fact.
Our emergency rooms are not full of emergencies. They are full of people who use it as primary care. They are in many cases though not all cases, illegals. You go and make a 'one size fits all' universal plan than true more people will be forced to pay, bringing the cost down somewhat, but you know what. I am not obese, I take care of myself, I am not likely to get pregnant or contract some nasty San Francisco based social disease, or any other host of maladies. Why should I pay for a plan whose benefits I will never need? Why can I not buy insurance for catastrophic circumstances and pay out of pocket, or an HSA for the run of the mill.
With the government approach, you and I have to pay for every low life, high risk SOB out there. NO THANKS.
cont..
You are only half-right. You are correct, the more persons who are in the pool, the more people there are that pay in the pool. You forgot to add with more insureds, the costs also increase because more is being paid out. As far as coverage for persons who can not afford them, well maybe they should work two jobs or cut back on other expenses. You know, the typical conserative dogma you so love to spout as long as it applies to the other guy. And finally, I am not debating Rusty and Glenn.
The hard facts for Nancy Pelosi:
http://crosssection.wordpress.com/2010/03/01/nanc...
Say, did you go to college? Did you ever have a course in economics? When you pay for insurance, you are footing the bill because you are also spreading the risk between the other insureds. So what is your solution since hospitals write off between 15-20% of their gross bills. Who do you think picks up the tab? I know this is a tough question to answer for you. So go to a mirror and ask this question. So lets assume the hospitals do not pass these costs down and simply eat them. I guess that is fine with you. After all, if they made more money, they might be able to afford better medical equipment that one day could save your life. But you have principles and by God, no one is going to tell me I am scamming the system. Oh, and I am curious, but are you in favor of mandatory automobile insurance. And finally, persons do have a financial incentive to stay healthy. You see, it is one thing to file bankruptcy for $5-10,000. It is another story for $50-100,000.
Now, if you try and throw that lame "everybody has to get auto insurance" argument out there, don't even! With auto insurance you can choose your coverage and buy it from anywhere. that whole argument is a non-sequiter.
The answer, or at least MY ANSWER, get government out of the insurance business altogether. They can still provide oversight and some regulation to prevent gross abuses, though they suck at the job as evidenced by everything they have oversight on already, but I digress. Take away the anti-trust protection, allow transferability and interstate competition. Allow insurance companies to specialize in different coverages (volume discounts) and for all those who use the emergency room as primary care for non-emergency, common maladies, kick them out.
cont…
So if we make more people pay for insurance costs will go up? And you consider this a good solution?
As for "typical conservative dogma", I am not a conservative, typical or otherwise, and I never suggest anything like that. But nice try.
As for knowing who you are debating, obviously you do not, or you would not have felt the need to try and impugn a particular source.
Instead it seems you are fine with demanding people pay into a system to support the costs of others "as long as it applies to the other guy".
If they are here illegally and still get whatever amount of care bill their country of origin. If their country will not pay or provide them with insurance themselves, we cut off that amount of foreign aid we send them. They will figure it out pretty wuick and stop using us as a dumping ground for their poverty and mismanagement.
Sound like tough love? Too bad. In our country as opposed to any other on the planet, our poor and those on welfare live better than anywhere else in the world and,,,,the biggest most prevelant health care problem they have aside from those arising from bad life decisions, is obesity. Go figure,,,everywhere else in the world it is starvation and malnutrition for the poor. Our myriad welfare programs support people just slightly lower of a lifestyle than those who work, and you are surpirsed that the Great Society and the War on Poverty are failures. Take a look at the ninth ward in N.O. LA. or look at what wonders compassionate progressives and unions have done for Detroit. Obama's template has that in store for all of us. Multiple generations of freeloaders. California is another prime example of progressives gone wild and look at their economy. I am a charitable person but give me an Effing break.
At some point we as a nation need to get a grip and start applying some good old fashioned COMMON SENSE and stop pissing away money on losers.
Sorry for this rant, but I am sick to death of this SH!T and I am done!
Let''s see. People have been scamming the system for a long time. I remember someone said, "Render unto Ceasar, what is Ceasar's and to God what is God's". So who came up with the Great Society, the government dole or persons not taking responsibilty for their own medical costs is not relevant. You see in my world, two wrongs do not make a right. And who said I was progressive. I would assume you are because you want others to pick up your tab. I would love to accept your position, but the problem is hospitals in this country, by law, must give and render aid to patients in need. So as long as this law is in effect, people will scam the system by not having insurance coverage. Now, if the hospitals could only refuse care. After all, it would only be fair. I am sure you have heard the saying, no pay, no play.
Did you go to college and take a course in economics? More importantly, did you understand it?
I am well aware of who picks up the tab. That you are so obsessed with your own medical costs that your let a raging fury over the merest hint that someone might get advice to take an aspirin, and even get said aspirin, for free, that you are incapable of realizing that your entire solution for not forcing people to bear the health care costs of others is to force people to bear the health care costs of others in another way.
Where in any of my posts did I say all persons must pay for all coverages? As far as a San Francisco social disease, well I had a very close friend die from AIDS from a blood transfusion in 1986. Where did I say you can not have high risk and a HSA for the rest? I simply said, we need to come up with a system that prevents the current uninsured and underinsured from scamming the system by flying blind. I can not believe a conservative would demand anything less.
It is in your system because most of the uninsureds do not have the money to pay for serious illnesses. So it is free.
If that is your position than you of all people should want no part of what the Dems are planning to stuff down our throats. Get the government out of the equation and let free common sense markets prevail. If we get sanity back into the system, prices will come down and we can start looking at making allowances for those who fall through the cracks in a much better fashion that we do presently or will under Obama care.
You are begging the question. The issue is persons need insurance for things, including their health care. Unfortunately, too many persons on this page simply do not understand, when they do not have health insurance, others pick up your tab.
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