More Guns, Less Crime
by John R. Lott, Jr.The District of Columbia’s murder rate plummeted by an astounding 25 percent last year, much faster than for the US as a whole or for similarly sized cities. If you had asked Chicago’s Mayor Daley, that wasn’t supposed to happen. The Supreme Court’s 2008 decision to strike down DC’s handgun ban and gunlock requirements should have lead to a surge in murders, with Wild West shootouts. The Supreme Court might keep Daley’s predictions in mind today as they hear the oral arguments on Tuesday in the Chicago handgun ban case.

Everyone in DC now knows that murder rates rose after the handgun ban and fell after they were removed. Unfortunately, Chicago never learned that lesson. The forthcoming third edition of More Guns, Less Crime shows that in the 17 years after its ban on new handguns went into effect, there are only two years where Chicago’s murder rate was as low as it was in 1982. Chicago’s murder rate fell relative to other largest 50 largest cities prior to the ban and rose relative to them afterwards. For example, Chicago’s murder rate went from equalling the average for those other cities in 1982, to exceeding their average murder rate by 32 percent in 1992 and by 68 percent in 2002. There is no year after the ban that Chicago’s murder rate fared as well relative to other cities as it did in 1982.
Similar comparisons exist for the top ten largest cities, the US as a whole, or the counties that boarder Chicago. The accompanying figure shows how Chicago’s murder rates changed relative to the rates in the adjacent counties. In the five years before the ban, Chicago’s murder rate fell by 28 percent relative to those counties. (County level crime data only goes back to 1977.) in the five years after the ban, Chicago’s murder rate doubled relative to those other counties.
It shouldn’t be to surprising that Chicago’s murder rates rose after the ban. Every time gun bans have been tried murder rates have risen. In the United States, gun ban proponents have blamed this failure on easy access to guns in nearby states. But the experience in other countries, even island nations that have gone so far as banning handguns and where borders are easy to monitor, should give gun control supporters such as Mayor Daley and some of the members of the Supreme Court some pause. Whether one looks at Ireland, Jamaica or England and Wales the experience has been the same. Not only didn’t murder rates decline as promised, but the rates actually increased.
The results also confirmed recent research showing that gunlocks increase crime by making it more difficult for citizens to use guns to protect themselves from criminals. In DC’s case, the drop in violent crime is probably more attributable to eliminating the law that guns be locked and unloaded. Relatively few handguns were licensed to the rifles and shotguns that now could be stored loaded and unlocked.
There is a certain irony that so many Chicago politicians understand the protection that handguns provide. Chicago Tribune columnist John Kass wrote in 2008 that there are two types of people who are allowed to have handguns in Chicago: “The criminals. And the politicians.” Mayor Daley has round the clock armed bodyguards. Members of the city council get to become deputized police officers.
We all want to take guns away from criminals, but all too frequently gun control laws disarm law-abiding citizens not criminals. Police are extremely important in protecting citizens, indeed probably the single most important factor. But, as the police know all too well, they almost always arrive on the crime scene after the crime has been committed. If the government can’t protect its citizens, the last thing that it should do is make the crime situation even worse.






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"If the government can’t protect its citizens, the last thing that it should do is make the crime situation even worse."
Guns don't kill people, criminals do.
I wouldn't trust a government to protect me when the chips are down, when they can't even do simple math. How can a government that cannot balance the books on Social Security and Medicare, that can't even run a Post office or a railroad (Amtrack) be expected to protect it's citizens.
I'd be more comfortable with Barney Fife and his silver bullet…….
Heh, the black and white episodes with Don Knotts are some of the best TV has ever offered.
But yeah, I'd feel safe(r) knowing "Fearless Fife" has my back.
i love how the left always thinks utopia is just one more law, one more sign, one more warm fuzzy hug away from today. one of my hobbies is sitting outside banks, schools, post offices, etc. and watching thugs bent on violence walk up to the entrance, pause, read the "NO GUNS ALLOWED" sign on the door, shrug and walk away with a chastened, sheepish look on their faces. (sarc/off)
In the UK, there are no guns, and no gun crime.
No guns, no gun crime. How hard to understand is that?
Why would a criminal follow the law?
If the government can't or won't protect me, I'll do it myself…simple as that…
Guns don't kill people, Progressives do.
POLICE RESPONSE TIME 5-15 MINUTES……….
THE POLICE'S NEW MOTTO…………
"TO TAKE A REPORT AND SERVE"……….
PLAN ACCORDINGLY………..
I'm temped to write no sh_t sherlock here, but I would think most sensible people (and I realize that rules out millions) ought to know it gives punks pause if they have worry that granny might be packin. .
Well Limey, this aint Britain.
Handguns: When seconds count the police are just minutes away.
uh…better read this one….gun crimes up 35%
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/26408...
Excuse me, but the last time I checked you lived on a rather small island by comparison. You never had as much freedom as us and you were all too willing to give away what you had. Now kindly butt out of American affairs. (no offense)
Gun Control?
Where I come from, gun control is hitting what you aim at.
The first time, all the time.
P.S. Smile. You're on candid camera.
Have fun in your Police State Sanitarium.
So, which are you, Stupid or a stupid liar?
Only a dumb ass thinks crooks follow gun laws.
No guns, no crime. Hmmm, seems I remember someone going on a rampage there recently killing several with a gun. What buffoon doesn’t think that guns find there way into the criminals hands with trotting down to the local gun shop and having a background check done. They get them from some illegal gun runner who could care less how the popper is used. I will submit that just as the rate dropped in D.C. the same has been true everywhere that law abiding citizens have been able to purchase and carry fire arms. The removal of that basic right would bring the criminals into your home to rape, robe and murder with impunity. Read criminals as government as well if you wish.
Funny.
There are more security cameras in Britain than anywhere on the planet.
He appears just eaten up with a case of the dumb ass.
What is the first thing you feel when you shot an intruder?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/gun-crime+uk/uk
I guess it's not the gun that's the problem-it's massive hemorrhaging due to acute lead poisoning.
Recoil.
Are you really dumb enough to actually think that criminals would turn in there guns? Do you think they get them legally now? Do you think I care what you think? Stay on your side of the pond and butt out!!!!
"Well, we're not just going to let you walk out of here like that." "Who's we sucker?" "Smith, Wesson, and me."
Um… You know, leaving aside the obvious that, uh, there ARE guns in Britain, and there IS gun violence in Britain, there are a couple of other issues that need to be addressed.
First, this is not Britain. We have what's referred to as a "right" to keep and bear arms. Some of us even take advantage of this right and purchase the aforementioned arms.
Second, there's this little thing that you may have heard of that is called the "black market". That's right, it's the place where leftist trolls used to buy their weed before some quack doctors decided it had medicinal properties. This is a place where illegal items are purchased – including guns. Now, since law-abiding citizens won't utilize this market, gun laws automatically deny gun ownership to everyone except the criminals willing to use the black market.
Third, guns in the hands of criminals staring around at defenseless citizens is a good recipe for disaster on a societal level. Typically, this results in criminal endeavors and dead citizens.
I hope I typed slow enough for you to understand.
Good day!
They're like laboratory rats stacked in cages.
And they never look for the root causes of their psychological trauma. They live by the creed you spoke of last week.. 'better living through pharmaceuticals'. For their sake, I hope the U.K. never has a shortage of Prozac.
Your ball struck my foot…
Lets not forget that the per capita murders in the UK due to knife stabbings greatly exceed the deaths per capita from gun violence here in the US – you might as well start lobbying for the outlawing of sharp objects now before it gets out of control!
…moron
"Hmmm, seems I remember someone going on a rampage there recently killing several with a gun"
got a link to that story?
I live here, and I don't remember anyone going on the rampage since Dunblane, about 25 years ago.
The UK police, on the other hand, are the only people with guns and are pretty good at shooting unarmed citizens and their colleagues.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8515712.stm
I like the way you think…
What a well researched plausible article. Mr. Lott, you have given all God fearing Americans "ammo" for thought. Kudos to you ,sir!
Signed,
Mary Rosh
Did you like that phrase?
I do. Better living through pharmaceuticals is my catchall phrase. It explains away a variety of ills.
You are well versed. Do you remember George Orwells 1984? Room 101?
Britain is Room 101.
Excuse me? My groin region is just fine, thank you.
Every Gun Laws is a Violation of our 2nd Amendment Rights! I can't believe people do not see this?!?
These statistics are true everywhere throughout the US: L.A., New York, DC: all strict gun laws and all have the highest gun crime rates in the US
LOL at a link to an article from 2003
To BritishPerson,
You may not have gun crime but you have roving bands of thugs with knives and clubs and you also have the hghest percentage of home invasions in your history! Your Parliment doesn't seem to care whether you're really safe or not! They pay lip service to safety and consider you peasent/subjects instead of free men and women! Rather discusting for a country that once was the beacon of free peoples!
Rolly
I wasn't sure if this was 'sincere' or sarcasm until I looked at your posts, I have to tell you, a -78 on a mere twenty eight posts…outstanding…outstanding indeed
Congratulations, I've never seen a troll with his head this far up their ass before.
i agree with that phrase
actually thats my job
the dispensing of said pharmaceuticals
legally
Why, thank you! Always happy to bring an opposing viewpoint to any forum in what's supposed to be a Democracy.
My apologies, not a rampage. That one was some years ago. Try this mendicant. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/feb/24/couple-s...
Maybe this one will jog your memory. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/oct/28/rhys-jon...
Or maybe this one. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/dec/04/laptop-m...
I am sure I could go on. Maybe you have been sleeping or just fogged over by some loon state of ignorance.
he is passing a lie as well. In the UK, Australia, and New Zealand gun crime soared just after the bans were put in place. Bobbies are now armed, and they have submachine guns in their cars for backup.
So our 'limey' is either a liar, a fraud, or an ignoramus…
"No guns, no gun crime. How hard to understand is that?"
We're not dealing with a smart bunch here so I doubt they egt it.
We're talking about people who staged T.E.A. Taxed Enough Already protests after Obama cut taxes for 95% of us.
God these people are stupid.
Cowboy Logic
A bottle of booze to you, Cowboy!
Gun Control? Carry Permits?
I have a laminated card in my wallet that says:
"License To Possess And Carry A Firearm In The United States"
"The original certificate licensing me to possess and carry my gun(s) is safely guarded at our National Archives in Washington, DC for your inspection. To locate this document readily, ask the curator to see the Constitution Of The United States Of America. Then refer to and read Article II where it says: "The Right of the People to Keep (possess) and Bear (carry) Arms (guns) Shall Not Be Infringed." Please bring a dictionary with you so that you can look up the following words: Right, People, Keep, Bear, Arms and Infringed. This is actual proof that I do have a license to possess and carry my guns throughout these ENTIRE United States."
Now if you want to give a law enforcement officer a real bad day, get a card like that, and flip it out. They go insane and start stammering and stuttering, because that isn't in the rule book………..
indeed…the wife is a brit and she says the same thing!!!
Sorry… Couldn't help the Happy Gilmore reference – only because of the T-shirt the guy was wearing!
Hitting the medicinal weed hard are you? Why did 95% of Americans who have alread filed their taxes for 2009 realize a tax increase. You must be a dropout or a recent graduate of the public school system. Either way you missed basic math.
Obama cut no taxes, liar.
It's not a democracy, it's a republic, dunce.
Ooooh, the trolls are out in full force today! I guess lauding Obama's accomplishments didn't take you too long this morning? Oh, wait…
I LOVE this post! Unfortunately, I don't have the $$$ available to pay my lawyer if I tried that in someplace like Md… Would love to see someone try it! I'd donate to their defense.
would that be chronic or schwag pharmaceuticals?
Duh! Look at Kennesaw GA., just north of Atlanta, a city of almost six million. The Kennesaw city council some years ago passed a law that every home must have a handgun. Subsequently, it is one of the safest towns in America. All crime of every kind went south, criminals avoid Kennesaw.
Lookie here, the "people are stupid" Welfare Queen is back.
Show some respect to your benefactors!
We have NO right to police protection! Do not misunderstand that! We DO have the right to bear arms for our own self-defense!
Even IF a police officer arrived in 5min… ALOT can happen in those 5 min! Once there, who's to say the Police won't shoot YOU by mistake?
Don't misunderstand… I support the police. But, they're human like you and me… and, they can't be everywhere…
If there is a reasonable chance that anyone you meet on the streets is packing heat then criminals must think twice before perpetrating violent crime on citizens. Makes perfect sense, more guns equals more frightened criminals.
Not familiar with this.
What if someone can't afford a handgun? Will one be appointed to you?
Isn't making it mandatory similar to forcing EVERYONE to buy Healthcare insurance?
I'm PRO 2A, but not a fan of Kennesaw (if that's correct).
Jimmah Cahtuh commisioned Professor Gary Kleck(a known anti-gunner) to conduct the most exhaustive study(at the time) in order to "prove", once and for all, that guns lead straight to higher crime rates.Kleck was given unfettered access to ANY crime statistics to ANY governmental agency he wished(including the FBI, DOJ, etc.).
After studying all of the statistics, down to the county and local level, for years, Mr.Kleck came to a startling conclusion~Where gun ownership was HIGHER, crime rates were LOWER, with the lowest rates being in areas that allowed CONCEALED carry permits.Carter was infuriated and Kleck became a staunch advocate of gun ownership rights.
Some people, when confronted with Truth, are open-minded and fair enough to grasp said Truth and embrace it, modifying their beliefs, others, well…..not so much. ;^) ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Hanzo
I think Daley suffers from a Napoleon complex – he's a shrimp
All of the above.
And why would 'democracy' have anything to do with 'opposing viewpoint'?
But out-of-control knife crime. And broke-bottle crime. And cricket-bat crime. You're today six times more likely to be mugged in London than in New York.
I'm sure when some hoodie stabs you to death you can expire with the smug satisfaction that at least it wasn't a gun that killed you.
Imbecile.
And the gun ban went into effect, when?
I take it as both high praise that both replies to me have included name calling, the proven debate tactic of those who have no opposing argument.
"after Obama cut taxes for 95% of us."
He did NOT.
God, you people are liars.
Also… Good thing those guns are banned now that you have Muslim Terrorists running around blowing things up. Hey, wait! Maybe they should ban blowing things up! That will put a stop to those nasty Terrorists!
A word to the wise though.
I wouldn't reccomend doing this, unless you were dedicated, and serious, and were fully prepared to get handcuffed. I am dedicated, and have been handcuffed as a result of it.
I also wouldn't reccomend it unless you have a good lawyer on retainer.
So I guess that just proves figures don't lie, but the liars figure.
It's not name calling if it is accurately descriptive.
Like others of his amazingly coddled leftist worldview, he fails to understand the word "no" and it's cousin "not". They're merely jumbles of uninterpretable letters that give them a headache and are accordingly ignored.
You'll want to be armed when England becomes a politically correct Sharia Law-abiding wasteland in a couple of decades.
Have fun with this one. Yeah, it's from 2001, but it's still shows how bans do not do anything:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk/1440764.stm
Remember – you can only call it name calling if it's not true. Therefore, you have no right to complain or feel superior.
Happy Trolling Day!
There have been several cases where police have been deemed not liable for any injury you suffer waiting for them to arrive. If memory serves these cases were both brought in the SF Bay Area city of Alameda, the island that rust forgot, where you can't carry concealed and subject to the rest of California's ridiculous gun laws.
California received the Brady bunch's highest grade; and it has the highest per-capita murder rate.
You beat me to it.
You want the truth, you can't handle the truth.
But you KNOW that's only because the nasty white elites don't let the minorities get ahead legally. They HAVE to resort to violence and crime to feed their families. It's YOUR fault, knucklehead!
Aren't you feeling guilty enough to vote libtard yet?
Want to read any facts from the book or the article? Sorry, here we go by facts and evidence not what makes up feel all warm and fuzzy inside like leftists.
Yes it was, and politicians still refused to acknowledge it.Professor Kleck was an anti-gunner, as I stated, and he was widely ostracized by "his own kind", for arriving at a truthful conclusion.Luckily for him, it more or less changed his outlook on gun ownership and also politics.Since his study I've read many articles written by Mr.Kleck(some even in gun magazines, oh my!) and he is a very honest man, even if he was, at one time, misinformed. ;^) ,,,,,,,,,,,,,Hanzo
oh goody, "a non-thinker' is back with his trademarked stinging rejoinder, "God these (or occasionally, 'you') people are stupid." as a parting shot.
in the immortal words of Chas Emerson Winchester: "Aaaaaaaggghhhhh! Once again I lay mortally wounded. Skewered by your rapier wit!"
When seconds count, the police are only minutes away!
When it comes down to it, crime statistics are actually irrelevant. Think of it this way, people lie everyday, and much harm comes to many as a result, yet there is no using that reality to support banning exercise of the First Amendment.
Sure, it is great to look to the data for what it is worth. However, regardless of which way it comes down, that data is not germane to the question. The set of rights known as the Second Amendment, pre-exist the creation of government. Government, therefore, does not hold ownership over those rights, individuals do.
To be sure, there is room for proper legislation regarding firearms and this data is useful in that arena. This regulation must fall OUTSIDE the rights themselves. That is to say, what those rights are remain off limits, but what isn't a right is within that boundary.
It is my right to own firearms, that means I have a right to purchase them. I have a right to keep that purchase private. I have a right to a TWO party contract to purchase them. Not a THREE party or more contract with government in the middle of the buyer and the seller. Likewise, I own a right to carry those firearms I choose to. There is no proper legislation to be had here either. Open or concealed, it is my choice to make on my own volition. The same applies to uses that are rights. Defending against a burglar or one who attempts to assault me or mine, bang, done deal, and no punishment for me. The same could be said about taking game as a food supply. Punish of the exercise of rights is UNJUST.
Now, I have no right to hold up a 7-11 or a bowling alley. I have no right to shoot up my neighbor's house because i think his music is too loud or because of the colors he wears. I have no right to point a gun at you to make you sign a contract. I have no right to take my firearms on your property against your wishes.
Government must respect exercise of rights and remove code that runs afoul of this common sense – replacing them with legislative code that ONLY targets that which is outside the exercise of what are RIGHTS.
i can't remember the specific name(s) of the DC case, but the gist of the ruling was basically that the police only have a general obligation to ensure the safety of society at large, they have no specific obligation to protect any individual citizen. one of the all-time great moments in weasel-worded jurisprudence…
"An armed society is a polite society." Robt Heinlein
I love the commercial for the (home alarm) system, you know the one. The woman and her little girl are playing in their back yard. The mother says "it's time for lunch", so they go inside. Never do they see the grungy looking guy peeping at them through the fence. Mom and girl are in the kitchen, and the bad guy breaks in the front door. the alarm goes off, and he, the bad guy, runs away. The phone rings and the alarm company rep asks if there's anything wrong. The mom says 'someone tried to break in the front door", to which the alarm guy says he's sending help, right away. We've all seen the commercial. My question is, what idiot came up with it? That has to be the worst ad in the history of TV. Of course, by the time the cops could possibly get there, both mom and daughter would be in deep chit.
just sayin
gun control is not about guns, it's about control.
You missed on my friend. To BEAR means to Carry and to USE in certain circumstances.
Anti gunners really do hate the Heller decision. They will hat the McDonald decision even more.
If Britain banned blowing things up. Do you think the Terrorists that live there would stop blowing things up???
Smoking pot is banned. No pot means no pot smokers, right? Do you believe there's no pot smokers here?
Your logic is illogical.
Do that here in Illinois, carry a gun, and you go to JAIL.
Yea, it's TRUE, I live about 10 minutes from Kennesaw!
"There are two types of people allowed to have guns in Chicago, criminals and politicians…."
Aren't these people the same in Chicago !!!!
You are correct. The court rulling was worded to reflect the Police are not responsible… blah blah blah…
Kinda like this article about a Pa man dying after many calls to 911 and waiting over 30 hrs…
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100228/ap_on_re_us/u...
It sounds like the paramedics may be punished tho. They may get into more trouble than the police. Does that mean that we have more of a right to paramedic response than we do to Police protection? So when the Police don't arrive in time and you're shot, you have a right to be picked up by a medic…??? Odd.
Well said! Rock ON!!!
There is one part of the CCW (carrying a concealed weapon) law I disagree with. It's the 'concealed' part. Bad guys would automatically be put on visual notice that calling 9-1-1 is the second option.
$1.4 TRILLION deficit financed with T Bills. Now just where do you think the money for the interest payments are going to come from?
BHO gives you $13/wk (taxable at that) when their deficit spending drives inflation and you thank them for it!!
And if you think no guns means no crime, you're clueless. Know what a Yob is? or a hoodie? Try reading the UK papers. Even rednecks like me know more about English crime than you do.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1254584/B...
This sort of thing is sadly routine there.
I'm not going to cop-bash. They are not omnipresent, but not for lack of trying. And every cop (except the one female desk jockey who heads up the local fraud division) I've met has encouraged me to carry for my own protection, because they know their limitations.
If You Have any Doubt About the Results of Gun Control…
The Soviet Union established gun control in 1929.
From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Turkey established gun control in 1911.
From 1915 to 1917, over 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Germany established gun control in 1938.
From 1939 to 1945, a total of over 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
China established gun control in 1935.
From 1948 to 1952, over 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Guatemala established gun control in 1964.
From 1964 to 1981, about 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
More…
http://usataxpayer.org/?0079012351
Dr. Thomas Sowell on Intellectuals
http://usataxpayer.org/?0028068146
Anyone who doesn't understand the connection between private gun ownership and those who prey on the defenseless should come over to my house and knock on my window around 3am for a explanation.
In Australia, 12 months after gun owners were forced by new law to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by their own government, a program costing Australia taxpayers more than $500 million dollars. The first year results are now in:
- Assaults are up 8.6 percent.
- Homicides are up 3.2 percent.
- Armed robberies are up 44 percent.
- Homicides with firearms are now up 300 percent.
The law-abiding citizens turned in their guns and the criminals did not, criminals still possess their guns!
Figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady decrease in armed robbery with firearms, this has changed drastically upward in the past 12 months, criminals are now guaranteed that their prey is unarmed.
There has also been a dramatic increase in break-ins and assaults of the elderly. Australian politicians are at a loss to explain how public safety has decreased after such monumental effort, and expense was expended in successfully ridding Australian society of guns.
More…
http://usataxpayer.org/?0079012351
He cut my taxes. I lost my job in July and still haven't found one. I put the house up for sale in July and still don't have a buyer, when it does sell it will sell for about 125k less than it was worth in 2008. Of course, I have to pay a 10% penalty for taking MY money out of MY IRA to pay the mortgage, otherwise I'd been foreclosed by now.
I'm moving out west, from near Chicago, moving what cash I'll get for the house to silver, a used Xterra, and a two year emergency supply of food for my elderly father and me.
if the goal is no crime, you're failing terribly
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1254584/B...
A sadly routine story. Doesn't look like your approach is doing any better then ours
"God created man, Samual Colt made them equal" . At least we have options, and you don't.
How's that DNA database of innocent people and nationwide CCTV system working for ya?
according to The UK Guardian; Scotland Yard announced a 17% increase in gun crime in 2009…
There is SO much on this- everywhere on the 'net- that you don't even need to post a link…
this so-called 'British Person' is a disinformation agent. Pay them no heed…
Yeah…why haven't we thought of that. Come to think of it, why don't we retroactively do it and make 9-11 not have happened?
See, thinking like a progressive IS easy…
Every time I see that ad, I think how great it would be for the woman to reach into a drawer, pull out a handgun, center three shots on the intruder and then the screen switch to "Smith and Wesson: The ultimate in home security"
me two and AMEN…
Anti gunners have long been against the right of self defense itself. It affords them CONTROL over others. They used it to hold blacks in the chains of slavery and segregation and they do it today with their bans. They think that as long as they ban whites right along with blacks, that it is somehow proper. Sadly, the case law is on their side.
Tomorrow is the start of the end for their ways. While billed as a gun case, the 14th Amendment case that is McDonald versus Chicago is one of the final nails in the coffin containing slavery.
It is my hope that the so called black community wakes up to who it really is tying to keep them, and everyone else, downtrodden and absent full civil rights. Oh what a moment of insight it will be when they finally realize it is those who they have long supported who are actually doing it.
What about your countries problem with knife crimes? How about the lovely British youth's penchant for beating people to death with baseball bat's? How about your little issue with home invasions (paricularly against the elderly)? You took away the guns and yet your citizen's still kill each other……….What's next? Maybe take away all the knives………….you can all use "Sporks" then……………….
since guns were invented, I think. They have never been legal.
Criminals don't care about gun "laws", they don't care about any "laws" and thats why we call them criminals.
The left is completely insane I have give up trying to reason with any of them.
For someone to oppose your "argument" you would have to make one first.
Well first you'd have to make the case that 95% of the population pays taxes in order to get a tax cut. You can't cut taxes on someone who doesn't pay them. So howabout you start the argument over. There is a super large portion of the American population that doesn't even pay taxes. Then there's the self-employed business owners that didn't see a dime in tax relief. Then you've got the top 10% paying the largest majority of taxes. So that slice of pie they talk about (95%) is really drival. And it amounted to less than two packs of smokes a week.
That's an easy one – "Sudden Impact", uttered by "Dirty Harry" Callahan. He had some great memorable lines.
GUN CONTROL MEANS BEING ABLE TO HIT YOUR TARGET!!!
NOW GO PRACTICE!!!
Carry a cop around! Priceless! +1
Not many home invasion robberies in Idaho! There is a loaded shotgun in every house – and every one knows it! I never felt safer than the year I spent in Idaho. Oh, there's property crime and sometimes the bad guys shoot each other, but I never worried about someone coming through my door like I do in the Bay Area of CA right now. I'm even afraid of driving in the residential areas, as the new way of car jacking is happening there. They wait on the corner of a crosswalk and as you drive up and come to a stop, they step off the curb as if to walk across the street, and when just clear of your car, they turn and run for the driverside door. My doors are locked, my foot is hovering over the gas pedal and if one of them so much as looks in my direction, he may be wearing my bumper! Seriously, it's really getting scary here.
Understood. Don't let my score fool you. I have been around for a long time. I know them in the first few words. I have recently resurrected my ID account. Just a long story in itself. Thank you though. They are much like cat toys and sometimes fun to hush with fact.
If only open carry is allowed, as is the case in Wisconsin, then a criminal only need see that nobody is armed in order to perpetrate their crime.
A mix of both open and concealed is how to really affect criminals. Each should choose their own way – or – choose not to exercise their right at all, on their own.
When criminals KNOW that their targets can be armed if they so choose to be, they must think long and hard about their criminal activity 24/7 everywhere. That is a very good thing.
Cowboy, can't be better described!
Barney Fife could whip Barney Frank. I admit it is mostly offtopic, but still….
Exactly. Ask a Lefty that question and one of two things will happen: 1) They will change the subject or 2) their heads will explode.
Try it. It's fun!
Just don't think that the obamaniac isn't thinking just this!
Compared to Bwarney Fwank, Barney Fife is John Wayne.
This is true, unless you live in a rural area and then it is longer than just minutes for a response time. In a remote area, it could be days.
………to keep them under surveillance?
You have to understand that some folks are afraid of guns – period. Doesn't matter if the good guy or bad guy owns them, they're just afraid of them. So they start with a mindset that guns are evil. Then add a dash of Hollywood, the nightly news, and the progressive politicians portraying guns as evil, you get a large portion of the population that is scared to death of guns. We no longer live in a society where you learn to shoot a gun at the age of 5 learning how to hunt for your next meal. People do most their hunting in grocery stores and are totally dependent on civil police to protect them. I dare say the largest majority of anti-gun fanatics have never used a gun, shot a gun, or owned a gun. Victims of gun violence blame the gun and not the criminal. Witnesses of gun violence blame the gun and not the criminal. As for me, Charleston Heston said it right – from my cold dead fingers!!!
That's exactly what I was taught, or as it was said in The Patriot – "aim small, miss small".
Yep.
Windage and elevation.
Creep and drift.
Bull crap.
And if you were really British you'd know that.
Be gone, troll!
All you have to do to convince yourself that private gun ownership is a good idea is to watch videos of the aftermath of the Rodney King verdict in LA, or after Katrina in NO.
Dunblane wasn't 25 years ago. It was in 1996.
So you must be very young since you obviously don't remember it. (Nor apparently do you remember a time when people were legally allowed to own guns.)
Now it's clear why the leftists love gun control!
GUN CONTROL = POPULATION CONTROL
Actually the Parliament does care deeply…
… as long as you are an immigrant.
This is true. You are speaking of the income tax, through which we all know that very few people actually are net taxpayers. I was speaking in far more general terms, so that even a troll could understand it. Not that they would admit it. They have difficulties responding to convincing arguments. They usually just play the race card.
Great Britain banned handguns in January 1997. But the number of deaths and injuries from gun crime in England and Wales increased an in- credible 340 percent in the seven years from 1998 to 2005 (David Leppard, “Ministers ‘Covered Up’ Gun Crime,” London Times, Aug. 26, 2007). The rates of serious violent crime, armed robberies, rapes, and homicide have soared. You might find this figure from The Economist magazine of interest (http://johnrlott.tripod.com/other/theEconomist.ht... More extensive discussions are in the forthcoming edition of More Guns, Less Crime (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0226493660/ref=n...
I know my history is relatively fresh. This is me as well. deleted9591369 enjoy!
LOL yeah How about all you guys wringing your hands about "Knife Crime" people getting gutted with kitchen knives…
Hey, Teachers out there (USA) please start teaching US History and make your students learn the USA Constitution and Bill of Rights, if you can't do it at school tell them to do it at home in their own time!
I do not want to be RULED in the USA!!!! I am an American and my Liberties, Freedoms and Bill of Rights will not be INFRINGED UPON!
I see.
trajectory – ft lbs – air density and muscle memory.
Thanks Ashrak. Either way works.
That's why the saying,"A man with a gun is a citizen. A man without a gun is a subject." is true
I suppose one should bring up Switzerland: the most heavily-armed populace on the planet. Why? Because the government *issues* firearms to every household – as in lovely SIG 510 or 550 assault rifles; privately-purchased arms are very, very prevalent as well. They sell the ammo at government cost, too, and sponsor shooting events nationwide.
Guess where Switzerland's crime rate ranks?
Well. I wonder how gadaffi's declaration of jihad on the Swiss will work out……..
And it still doesn't stop the crime…
really? What about all the gun clubs that existed until last decade? THOSE guns?
bs
Sunday Mercury, 31 January 2010 *
A second shooting in Wolverhampton in the space of a week is claimed to have been connected to on-going drug wars. The shooting happened outside a pizza restaurant in the Heath Town area.
BBC, 31 January 2010
A man is in a stable condition in hospital after being shot in the leg in Moxley, West Midlands. His condition is not thought to be life-threatening.
BBC, 31 January 2010
Two men, one armed with a handgun, forced the manager of a fast food restaurant in Reading, Berkshire, to open the doors before stealing cash from the tills. It is thought that hundreds of pounds were taken.
Northern Echo, 30 January 2010
Three men were arrested after cocaine and an air rifle were found during an operation when a vehicle was stopped in Darlington, County Durham.
no self respecting limey would post this crap. Even their lefties aren't this dishonest…
Okay, one liberal perspective –
I don't think it should be against the law at all to buy or even carry again. What troubles me is some of the manufacturing. Things like cop killer rounds, yeah those should have a ban. To me, possession and carrying laws though really should just come down to an education requirement. Especially if the owner has kids, they should be required to take a course to own a gun just like theyd have to take a course to drive a car. Banning it all together, because some people are too dumb to handle their piece, hurts those who are smart enough to do so.
all crime went up- not just gun, but knife, bats, clubs- when the bad guys know you are defenseless
they are emboldened to use anything.
Utopians don't care about the rise in crime; they figure eventually disarming everybody (police included) will give them the desired result. Of course, they don't realize that resukt is totalitarian tyranny.
And then again, maybe they do…
OK is looking at open carry…I'll stick to the concealed carry…
Compared to Bwarney Fwank, Aunt Bee and Opie are John Wayne too.
Real Hard since there are gun crimes every day in the UK not to mention other types of weapons. Explosives are also banned in the UK and that didn't stop the IRA in the past, nor has it stopped the Islamic Jihadists of the present.
I heard it as: better living through chemicals but that just shows our age!
Another one: Reality is for those who can't handle drugs.
Try this, your own Home Office data.
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/soti.html
I have read Mr. Lott's book some years back, it's good to see he is updating his book. I am a stauch advocate of gun control, I think everyone should be required to use a two- handed grip!
Blatant lie there. You have opened thy mouth and proven thyself to be false.
Buh-bye now.
Thanx for the laugh now carry on with your progressive propaganda.
I didn't see any tax cut and I was supposed part of that 95%.
Man anon, you're gettign pretty desparate to spout that line. That's been more than discredited in the last year.
Wonder what would happen if a conservative company in Chicago (I know, I know) were to license all their employees as company security, authorized to carry weapons?
Yup, when seconds count the police are minutes away.
I'll keep my self-protection ready for those seconds. Cops can take a report from me when they show up to bag the perp's remains.
No his/hers/its logic is great for a 2 year old, however I agree that CRIS has affected what is presumed to be adult logic.
My preference is with the Taurus pistol which uses 410 shot shells too although Colt is not shabby at all. Also a simple 6.8 assault rifle with changeable upper receivers for other calibers and finally a .50 Barret when one wants to reach out and touch some one.
Dr. Lott, you always bring a gun to an intellectual knife fight.
Way to blast this doofus' argument.
Liberals dont think its right to defend yourself or your property with a hand gun, just talk to the criminal soothingly, Libs think guns are for hunting and nothing else, they love govt. so much they can't even imagine an out of control tyranical govt. with all the guns on their side. psychologocal infantilism
Bozo,a more recent and relevant and less dated example is wash. D.c.s plunging crime rates since SCOTUS overturned DC's hand gun ban, is that 70's show your favorite tv show, probably. Ya might want to keep up with the recent developments on gun rights SCOTUS has Chicagos handgun ban in its sights, hopefully this year there will be an overturn. embrace the truth youre dated, punk
What did Tom have to say about this?
"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government. "
-Thomas Jefferson
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
-Thomas Jefferson
"Every citizen should be a soldier. This was the case with the Greeks and Romans, and must be that of every free state. "
-Thomas Jefferson
"For a people who are free, and who mean to remain so, a well-organized and armed militia is their best security. "
-Thomas Jefferson
Old Tom knew that in order for the people to be free then they must be able to control their government even by gun if necessary. A person should indeed be able to carry a gun at all times. Do you think that your government will wait until 5:30 pm when you get home from work (where your gun is)before they become tyrannical? That's a laugh. Something else Tom knew………
"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."
As you can see today your government wants to take care of you by forcing health care upon you at the barrel of a gun( fines or go to jail if you don't play along).
Lock and load!
You know there is something wrong with the way a country deals with crime when a local company of that country creates a "tip-less" knife because the rate of crimes with kitchen knives is so high.
Seminar participant…go on back to HuffingPaintPro…
I'm quite a fan of my glock 22.
You do realize that "cop killer" bullets are a fabrication of the media? They are often confused with hollow point bullets, which the police use themselves. Hmmm… so when the police use them are they called citizen killer bullets?
The law, as it exists now, has numerous ways to get out of having to own a gun. So many, in fact, that just about anyone could fit into one of the categories.
Not only that, but it was taken to federal court by the ACLU and lost. Considering how many outlandish cases the ACLU has WON, the fact that they didn't in this case must say something.
Like I always say,"Give everyone a six-shooter and insist that every gun owner use the first bullet on eliminating an attorney, then the USA would be a nicer and safer place to live."But that's just me….
Exactly! I have an alarm AND a gun.That's the only way to be safe.Just be sure the perp is at least three steps in…
I'm an ex-patriot Brit, and I used to own a firearm in England. Firearms certificate and all.
Recoil, followed by relief that I actually had a gun and therefore I'm the one still standing.
Actually, several guns, and usually one on my hip. Guns are no use locked in a safe. Intruders won't wait for you to retrieve and load them.
There's an apocryphal story about Switzerland and the Kaiser Wilhelm II before WWI. The Kaiser is on a state visit, and as is customary in those times, he's attending a Grand Review of the Swiss army. He asks the Swiss general standing next to him "how many men can you put under arms?"
"I can have 1 million men under arms in 24 hours"
The Kaiser sneers "and what if I were to invade with 5 million men?"
"Each of my soldiers fires five shots and goes home."
Thanks John, interesting stuff, but before I get really stuck into it, – regardless of actual crime, does your argument include or exclude accidents with guns? So is it "overall deaths due to more guns" or exclusively their use in crime? Just want to clear the intellectual decks first, because prima facie guns must go off and cause more deaths accidentally than knives, or is that statistically insignificant / irrelevant?
and not just accidents at home but the police training "friendly fire" incident reported today in my comment above, and the way our armed police sometimes shoot people brandishing table legs, and Brazilian electricians on their way to work, things like that as well as genuine Darwin award nominees.
"You're dated, punk", wow, that's harsh.Kinda' like,"I know what you are but what am I"?You know, it's said that ignorant, stupid people hate education, and you are a very shining example of that.,,,,,,,,,,,,,Hanzo
ROTFLMAO
"And if you think no guns means no crime, you're clueless"
No, as I stated above I think "no guns means no gun crime" – There is a difference between crime, and gun crime. Quite a significant difference. So no, I am not clueless, by your logic.
A yob is a generic term for a young person walking around after dark, ditto a hoodie, but with some kind of cloth or material covering his or her head. It is not illegal as such, but you are more likely to be stopped by the police and questioned if you are such a person. If you do not cooperate for any reason, especially in London, which is under a permanent Section 44 Terrorism Act order, you will be searched and held without charge for a few hours, and can be arrested and your dna added to the national criminal database, which will then be left on a busy commuter train by another state official a few months later.
This arson attack "sort of thing" is actually not at all routine here, which is why it makes the papers in the first place. And it didn't involve guns anyway.
An armed society is a more polite society.
"The right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
How hard to understand is that????
Agreed. This is a proglib armature. It took me 90 seconds to pull up the articles from the UK refuting his tripe. Probably a huff & puff post reject or some KOS wannabe trying to make a name for himself.
Sean come off it mate, that is 4 stories of people not dying. Is your solution is that all the shopkeepers above should have been armed to the teeth, and there would be less death and injury from guns? Well today it was reported that a policeman shot dead another policeman on a training exercise. More guns means more deaths, good guys and bad guys. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8515712.stm
Why do I carry a gun? Because a cop is heavy to lug around.
As an actual reply, as opposed to sarcasm, let me make one point. Cutting taxes by a small amount for 95% of the population while simultaneously raising or creating a new tax that will affect even 10% of the population by a greater amount means that only 90% of the population gets lower net taxes. Of course, we all know Obama is raising taxes on far more than only 10% of the population.
Cherrypicking doesn't work on this forum, anon. We are armed with the truth and backed up by facts.
Happy trolling!
There was also a case in DC where criminals broke in and raped a couple woman. Police knocked on door then left… drove by a few times, but criminals were inside for hours while the police did nothing. Police were found not-responsible.
I can't remember where I read that or I'd give the link.
In the UK the government lets you own and use a gun, and gives you a certificate. Then it is "legal".
In the US, it is illegal for the government to stop you owning a gun.
Your first link refers to a gun crime in 2003. That was also some years ago.
Your second link refers to a supplier of guns. He did not kill anyone.
How do Americans treat suppliers of guns? Do they lock them up for 20 years, or give them tax breaks?
It is in Chicago. Daley argues that the 2nd amendment does not apply to states, counties or cities. Logically, then, Daley should also believe that the free press, free religion, private property amendments also should not apply to states, counties, or cities……
You should listen to Johnny Horton and The Battle Of New Orleans I think you'll love it. !!!!
This must be one of those masochistic trolls.
It's a "once in a lifetime" kind of thing in the UK. It happened nearly 15 years ago, and hasn't happened since. Don't think it had happened for 15 years before either, so it is the worst in "living memory" in the UK.
And "Sporks" are a great idea actually Primer! How many elderly would now be dead of starvation if they couldn't eat microwave meals without sporks? I dread to think of the death toll.
Now that was a great little story!
[...] Read the original: » More Guns, Less Crime – Big Government [...]
My argument was that entire bit that preceded "dunce".
But you missed it, because you're stupid. QED.
911 is Government sponsored "DIAL A PRAYER" I'll go with my SIG 226 then I'll call 911 to come get the body.
dcase – "Bobbies are now armed, and they have submachine guns in their cars for backup"
(Note for those who are not living in the 1950s – a "Bobbie" is a beat policeman in the UK.)
It was seriously suggested several months ago that all police in the UK should be armed, got a lot of news coverage but never happened. You have confused talk with reality I'm afraid.
This suggestion was opposed by –
the general public
the association of chief police officers (ACPO)
"bobbies" on the beat (the rank and file Police officers)
most politicians
most community groups
most newspapers
It is absolutely false to say that police on the beat or in patrol cars in the UK carry guns. I live here, I spoke to one yesterday, he wasn't carrying a gun. Neither were the 2 I saw the other day. Or the one on the bike before that last week.
So, am I a liar, a fraud or an ignoramus? Or are you just projecting…
First line of wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_use_of_firear...
"In the United Kingdom, the majority of police officers do not carry firearms, except in special circumstances. "
passing a lie? A liar, fraud, or an ignoramus dcase ? ………
ask your wife how many people she knew in the UK who had ever touched or owned a gun, or have been directly affected by a gun crime in their entire life.
My guess, none.
very useful link to the homepage of the home office, thanks, it really proves your point.
You know those cop killer bullets with the scary teflon? That was to reduce wear on the gun. It had no effect on anything else.
Gor blimey guvnor, wot abaht all the cricket-bat crime eh?
strike a light, but these cricket bats are a really dangerous epidemic here in old London town!
and as for the broken-bottle crime! Don't come to the Olympics in London in 2012, the homicide rate will be so much worse than basically any part of the US on any day at all.
Aaron good post, on a usually misunderstood subject. as your concern about ammunition, please allow me to share with you a slightly different viewpoint.
A person who knows their way around firearms knows that a handgun is really only good for two things and one of those is target 'practice' if you catch my drift. Those of us who are grounded in the God and Guns POV, knows that pistol in the drawer is what we call a piece maker.
All my loved ones are very skilled in the use of and understanding of what a handgun is for. Heaven forbid, but if one of your family was faced with the prospect of a kill or be killed situation in your home, would you not want for your loved one to have every advantage in stopping that intruder?
I think I know the answer.. That sir is what a soft or hollow point is for.
British version of America's Progressives.
Very well said.
guns are tools they helped make us free men we own them to stay that way. why would anyone think any differant? guns dont kill, would you blame a shovel for digging a ditch?
More or less the analogy makes sense, more guns less crime. However, what if time comes that people are used to it? Meaning, once they argued with other people, they will automatically get their gun and fire it to their enemies. Then, their enemies will do the same before dying.
Still with the "repeat a lie and hope people believe it" tactic, jharp?
"There are two types of people allowed to have guns in Chicago, criminals and politicians…."
Aren't these people the same in Chicago !!!!
One group has a union, the others are free-lancers.
Lets pretend for a moment that you are a born Anglo-Saxon Brit, which you do not at all seem to be. We here in America dont take no Queen's ass kissing socialist telling us about freedom. If I recall the only nation to attack our homeland was yours, and you lost (1812 war). You are losing your nation to thuggish Moslem gangs establishing no-go zones for TRUE born Brits. Maybe if you all had guns then this would not be happening? Maybe you would not always be defending your island from Fascist nations? (with our help of course) Guns work for defense as well as offense you GIT. England gave us Heavy Metal and tanks, so I will back off now out of respect for this alone.
As they say, police don't prevent crime, they react to it after the fact.
Hey Aaron, your almost there. Glad you understand the basics of needing a firearm, but please stop buying in to the BS "copkiller bullets " type of liberal hype made up to scare people. This is coming from a guy who wears a bullet proff vest for work every day.
Again, the lesson here is that banning anything means that people who follow the law will stop using it, but those that dont follow the law wont. Look how well banning alcohol during prohibition worked and how well banning drugs now works. Make something illegal and it just creates a new black market and funds violent criminals.
Patriot2Opine;
Here is a direct quote from the story in your last link – http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/dec/04/laptop-m...
"Detective Superintendent Serena Kennedy said:… This appears to be a tragic, isolated incident and I would appeal to anyone who has information that will help us solve this crime to come forward."
An isolated incident of gun crime in the UK. A regular occurrence in the US.
If it is a licensed supplier of guns, it is my sincere hope that they would get some tax breaks and pass the savings on to law abiding citizens. If it bobby the illegal gun runner then I would hope he catches a bullet from one of his illegal weapons. That would dispel and tax burden for keeping the rif raf in the lockup. Was that clear enough? Would you like me to spend another 90 seconds scouring the papers of your gun free state? I am sure I can find several more. Your argument lacks logic and rational thought. Give it up already.
I prefer HK, though I've handled some very nice Sig
Barret is a cannon and takes serious optics to make it worth while..but if you're counting stopping power, I doubt anything man portable on earth tops it.
[...] [...]
Don't get so cocky, old chap: your crime rate has skyrocketed since the
handgun ban.
For some reason Britons have this highly-skewed perception that America is
a combiation of Wild West and urban warzone- thank you very much,
Hollywood- while Merrie Olde remains an island of Bobby-on-the-beat calm.
The statistics tell a very different story. Your climb rate has soared
over the last fifteen years, whereas ours has been declining steadily ever
since we re-discoverd the wisdom of actually locking criminals up rather
than playing catch-and-release. The result: Britain's disarmed populace
are victimised by predators far more often than Americans.
\”Don't come to the Olympics in London in 2012, the homicide rate will be
so much worse than basically any part of the US on any day at all.\”
Essentially true, dontcha know, old boy.
I read your papers. They are not much different from here. Substitute "shot" with "boot to the head". The excuse the politicians use for implementing bans is the so called need for public safety. The reality is criminals will use whatever means. Gun, sledgehammer or pack of matches. Aren't you guys working to outlaw kitchen knives? What are you, adults or little children who can't be trusted with sharp and pointy things? Bans do more to protect the gov from you, then you from criminals. Laws and big brother's cameras are no substitute for morality. And when those fail, the pols simply ask for you to surrender yet more of your freedom. It is a never ending cycle that's driving you back into serfdom. Come on now, one of your guys wrote "1984". You say you're all for Big Bro protecting you from yourselves, then you complain about police state abuse. Which is it? Power and abuse go hand in hand. They can not be seperated. They are already at war with you. If the day comes to stop them, you will lack the tools. That is a price that thankfully most Americans are not willing to pay, yet.
Gee, more cameras, more cops, and more DNA sounds like freedom to me
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1254499/B...
and government is your friend
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1249797/L...
wake up UK. Your leaders look at you like a herd a cattle to be managed.
It took you 90 seconds to come up with 4 irrelevant examples.
Have another go!
Maybe a case of gun crime from 2010, that is the year we are in at the moment. Come on genius, you have been around such a long time after all…
As you suggessted above, I "..read criminals as government …" in your comment, and now it looks a bit stupid. Making a distinction between one lot of criminals and another lot, because one lot sells guns to the other lot and then incarcerates some of them for using them.
Anyway, still waiting for an example from 2010.
oh lord, 'cop killer' bullets again? i hate to tell you this, but any marginally competent machinist can make projectiles that will go thru a 'bullet-proof' vest like it's made of cotton candy.
on a related note: guns are extremely simple machines. on a scale of relative mechanical complexity, they're a lot closer to paper clips than car engines. the most complex part is the ammo, and it ain't all that tough to make, either…
I have a question. Why aren't the the neighborhoods in Chile where citizens have set up neighborhood watches as they postion themselves in their streets in lawn chairs not being looted and other neighborhoods are? Oh, that's right, those citizens are in a group and each person has a rifle or shotgun, but I still can't figure out why their homes aren't being looted while the other neighborhoods are. Please help Prog Lib Trolls. I need some of your illogic to help explain this.
"a handgun is really only good for two things"
THREE things, Mr. Hickock.
Perhaps the most important of the three is DETERRENCE. A gun doesn't exist merely to be fired, as the libs would have it: it also exists to have the *potential* to fire. Many, many more crimes are thwarted and criminals apprehended, by cops and citizens alike, by firearms that are never let off than by flying lead.
(That doesn't mean one should neglect the target practice, or the willingness to go to No. 3 if necessary. No room for bluffing)
(That also shouldn't overrule 3a, having a solid and reliable protector along if hiking or hunting in bear country. Preferably a Colt, S&W or Ruger revolver in .357 or better.)
You might want to look up Kennesaw, Georgia. All those dire predictions about Dodge City and shootings over parking places were made when the town adopted an ordnance *requiring* every household to own a firearm.
That was 25 years ago. And in all that time there have been ZERO gun homicides.
Perhaps it is my special ops background however I like having the right tool for the right job. Just as a carpenter has different hammers (framing, finish, etc.), one should also have the right weapon for the situation. The reason for the 410 pistol is simple, more projectiles per shot, accuracy in highly charged situation, and legal to carry as a pistol.
Gotta love the idea of "Choice and Freedom".
The 5.56 was always lightweight. The 6.8 should solve that. Once you start hopping around calibers the supply chain can't keep up. Where do you find 410 on the dark side of the moon?
funny how you found one little tidbit to back up the lies you manifested…
The Wiki article posted simply states that beat officers do not carry arms; we were incorrect in that assertion. However, heavily armed units are available on a moment's notice. What you lied about- yes LIED- was that 'no guns no gun crime' in the UK, which is not only a lie but a boldfaced, call my bluff in an instant- lie.
So, Liar? yes. Fraud? that too. Ignoramus? We'll let the audience be the judge on that…
OK Bozo…TRUTH is taxpayer funded govt. studies, lol what a Lib moron U are, glad we can all help fund your quest for truth. taxpayer funded govt. studies are better evidence than a regular persons personal experience to prove your arguments. Do me a favor and use that sword avatar of yours to commit hari kari, you conservative wanna-be, true liberal intellectual Obama voter, offal for brains
Hmm…..well, you seem to strive for lucidity, you're just not quite there yet.Your posts are like a person who is trying, and struggling immensely, to learn a foreign language.I believe there is some kind of thought there, it's just that a cognitive thought process escapes you. Your ability to reason seems to be a bit retarded, ok, verrrrry retarded.
Nice try, I guess.Don't get down on yourself though, some day you might be able to express a sentient thought without coming across as a clown.Some day. Maybe.See ya' around.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Hanzo
funny how your one tidbit was the daft claim that the UK has heavily armed 1950s "bobbies on the beat", then changed it to "heavily armed units are available on a moment's notice"…
Even if your last assertion was true, (it isn't), if you knew about the traffic in London, or any other city in the UK where gun crime might occur, you wouldn't call it "a moment's notice". Police headquarters with such arms are geographically few and far between.
In London, even the helicopters take ages to get to a crime scene, due to the amount of traffic from London city airport, heathrow, gatwick, luton and all the other crappy little ones that pretend they are in london.
Anyway I am still waiting for a simple link to an instance of death by gun crime in the UK from 2010, guess it's not going to come, so 'no guns means no gun crime' is still standing, compared to the lie about uk bobbies and their routine heavy arms and submachine guns on the back seat, dcase.
As a BritishPerson , I would like to put on record that I do not understand how the English language has been used in either of the above two comments by Liberty666.
He may or may not be accusing Hanzo of being a liberal. In my opinion, it is not the case that Hanzo is a Lib moron. I think we can all agree on that.
I hope this has clarified matters for the other speakers of the English language, which I know to exist on this site.
Hi John,
I had a look at the graph in your quote – http://johnrlott.tripod.com/BritishGunViolenceGra...
the correct link is http://johnrlott.tripod.com/other/theEconomist.ht...
It goes up to 2003, and only concerns robberies, not overall deaths from guns.
I would appreciate some kind of argument based on statistics which go up to 2010, which is now 7 (seven) years later than 2003.
Regardless, this http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs10/hosb0110…. is up to date – it goes up to 2009, and page 11 shows a massive drop since your 2003 figure.
Uk crime, of all kinds, is decreasing, and we basically have no gun crime compared to the US.
Thanks.
(Still waiting for a link to a gun crime that has occurred in the UK in 2010, the current year. )
ok…
We admitted a misstatement on the beat cops; at one time arming them was a fait accompli'.
However, the subjects there continue to vote for slow suicide, so be it. Howver there are heavily armed tactical units and anti-terrorist squads that are armed- nothing you have claimed is changing that.
Ultimately your foggy little island isn't the issue here. The US is a free country, and that comes with responsiblilties. Gun ownership is a right that was granted us to protect against tyranny- and the nascent King Georges out there. You can whistle while Londonistan fades into oblivion.
That's your right. Ours is a vigilant, educated, and armed middle class of landowners. An alien concept to you, perhaps.
Not us…
ok…
We admitted a misstatement on the beat cops; at one time arming them was a fait accompli'.
However, the subjects there continue to vote for slow suicide, so be it. Howver there are heavily armed tactical units and anti-terrorist squads that are armed- nothing you have claimed is changing that.
Ultimately your foggy little island isn't the issue here. The US is a free country, and that comes with responsiblilties. Gun ownership is a right that was granted us to protect against tyranny- and the nascent King Georges out there. You can whistle while Londonistan fades into oblivion.
That's your right. Ours is a vigilant, educated, and armed middle class of landowners. An alien concept to you, perhaps.
Not us…
by the way, you DID see the UK Guardian post on 17% increase in gun crime in 2009, didn't you? Or do you ignore that which doesn't fit your narrow mind?
dcase – "However, there are heavily armed tactical units and anti-terrorist squads that are armed- nothing you have claimed is changing that."
There are, and they exist for special circumstances. However, most of the time we don't need them.
This is how we tackle terrorists at airports, without guns, in July 2007.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_w...
If any of these heroes had been armed, and shot at the vehicle which was "….packed with gas canisters " (direct quote), they would all now be dead.
Your country is nearly 300 years old, please grow up and out of your gun obsession soon.
Still waiting for a link to a death by gun from the UK from this year of our Lord 2010…..
the pictures tell the story better
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/6257388.st...
[...] » More Guns, Less Crime — Big Government [...]
Guns don't kill people, people kill people. You got to remember that if someone really wants to commit murder there are a number of ways to do it, with a knife, with a bat. etc.
This is my opinion.wii softmod
Guns don't kill people, people kill people. You got to remember that if someone really wants to commit murder there are a number of ways to do it, with a knife, with a bat. etc.
This is my opinion.wii softmod
I find it amazing that so many here can post comments supporting the free access to guns in the US, that does little to deter your criminals from using guns against Americans, but only, at best, provides Americans with the opportunity to face their armed attackers with a gun in the vain hope they might have better than 50 / 50 change in a shootout against them.
There are very good reasons the US has far, far higher rates of gun homicide and gun crime, while the vast majority of Developed Western Nations have far better regulation of their guns and far, far, lower rates of such crimes.
If your guns actually were effective at detering such crimes just why is it then that your Actual Results of far higher rates of same demonstrate the exact opposite?
If your guns actually were effective at detering gun crime you would expect, and get, lower rates of gun crime.
They aren't – not even close!
So it is very clear how effective your guns are NOT at detering such crimes…
In spite of what those who make careers selling books to you that cater to, and feed upon, your misguided views on that reality….
John1943
That's what so amusing about movies- where they make a point of having the 'Good Guy' empty the gun, lock in in a box put on a closet shelf and put the key out of easy reach.
I believe in securing firearms where young children can not get easy access to them, but to be of any use in an emergency (when you need it in a hurry) it needs to be accessible to the user. That is where responsible and reasonable must come together.
"Uk crime, of all kinds, is decreasing…"
Bollocks. Broon's claims to that effect have been debunked, like virtually all his horrid Government's Official Statistics."
"…and we basically have no gun crime compared to the US."
What a pathetic strawman.! You have more crime than the US. Yours is a more violent society than ours. Are you trying to make the idiotic point that it's better to be stabbed to death than shot?
"Gun control" is the morally bankrupt belief that a woman lying dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is preferable to that young woman explaining to Plod how her attacker got those bullet wounds.
"More guns means more deaths, good guys and bad guys.
Complete horseshit.
"Is your solution is that all the shopkeepers above should have been armed to the teeth, and there would be less death and injury from guns?"
As opposed to more death and injury from other causes? And, yes, had those shopkeepers been armed to the teeth there would have been less crime. Perhaps more "death from guns," but the dead would have been the criminals.
US homicide rate (2006) –
5.6 per 100,000 population
UK (England and Wales) homicide rate (2006) –
1.43 per 100,000 population.
source – http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs10/hosb0110…. page12
Both rates have been declining, not increasing, since handguns were banned.
one more time…
In the UK you- are a subject. High class chattel, but chattel nonetheless. In the US we are CITIZENS. With the requisite freedoms. Tough concept for you, perhaps- but with that comes responsibility. In Chicago, and Washington DC, they have catastrophically high gun crime.
They also have the most draconian gun laws.
In Phoenix, Az there is literally NO gun crime. They allow open carry. Understand this-
Eurosocialism can only exist because of a strong US economy and foreign policy.
That is the result of rugged individualism- US style. If not for that you would either be goosestepping down Trafalgar square or singing the Internationale (which YOU might very well do anyway).
So prattle on about 'growing up' and that. You are not take seriously here…
Christ, you are an idiot.
"If your guns actually were effective at detering [sic] gun crime you would expect, and get, lower rates of gun crime."
You seem to talk about "gun crime" as if it's the only sort. Do guns deter crime? You bet your sweet ass. For every shooting in the US are are TEN crimes thwarted by armed citizens. For myself, I am NOT going to put my faith in the police arriving in time to draw a chalk outline around me.
And you also seem to assume, preposterously, that gun control laws prevent criminals from having guns. Yeah, that makes sense…. Incidentally, genius, one in five murders in the US occurs in Washington, New York, Detroit or Chicago- all cities with strict gun control. Mexico has strict gun control, too- how's that working out.
Switzerland, on the other hand, has very, very little crime. Maybe that's because the Swiss are armed to the teeth.
Why should a free man need the government's permission?
And HMG does NOT let you to own or use a handgun.
WTF do you think trying to restrict the discussion to gun crime, alone is relevant? It's a rather sleazy equivocation. The issue is violent crime and major property crime, not the particular instrument used. And you are far, far more likely to be a victim of the above in Britain than in the US.
"It's a "once in a lifetime" kind of thing in the UK. It happened nearly 15 years ago, and hasn't happened since. Don't think it had happened for 15 years before either, so it is the worst in "living memory" in the UK."
Precisely! Handguns were legal until 1996, BUT Dunblane was a once-in-a-lifetime event.
The words "hoist" and "petard" come to mind.
US homicide rate – 5.6 per 100,000
UK homicide rate – 1.4 per 100,000
both declining.
It is worth repeating since you spout a lot about "more crime" but have yet to back it up with any link to any source.
False
The Dunblane massacre occurred in 1996, handguns were banned in 1997 in the UK
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/...
Reality is not really helping your argument really is it?
In the UK, handguns were banned except .22 by the conservatives in 1997, and further restricted by the incoming Labour government in 1997, following massive public backing for such bans.
Prior to 1996, the worst incident was the Hungerford massacre in 1986. Handguns were legal then.
The words "can't" , "face" and "the facts" come to mind, when reading your posts.
try again.
this 'person' from Britain is a left wing disinformationist and ideologue. Their assertions are facile, and the logic nonexistent. They want us to prove THEM wrong' i.e., proving a negative- while they simply cannot prove themselves right.
A limey is a SUBJECT of the Crown. We are CITIZENS of the United States.
NO comparison…
You really don't get it, do you? All those long years of handgun
ownership by the British public, and Dunblane stands alone as a unique
event.
Shall we talk about your rates of armed robbery, of rape, of mayhem and
aggravated assault, of burglary?
All higher- because your predators know they have nothing to fear.
False again.
The Hungerford massacre in 1986 resulted in a similar amount of deaths.
A "unique" event is one that only occurs once.
Since we banned handguns in 1997, there have been no massacres.
How hard for you to understand is that?
Yes lets talk about them, this time using facts, like the one I just posted.
And what exactly is the rate of "mayhem" in the UK?
as opposed to you dcase, who is just a straight out liar
direct quote from you above –
"ok…
We admitted a misstatement on the beat cops;"
(Is that the royal "we"? Or do you have multiple personality disorder?)
You lied when you stated that UK Police routinely carry guns, you were wrong, you admitted you were wrong. It was only few comments ago. Or don't you remember that – perhaps that was your other personality talking?
Fact: London's armed robbery rate per capita is six times New York's.
By your logic, armed-to-the-teeth Switzerland would be the murder capital
of Europe. If guns cause crime, then one would expect rampant crime in
Norway and Finland, where gun ownership rates are about the same as the
USA. By your logic, crime in the US would be lowest where gun control is
in effect.
But it's quite the opposite, of course: the gun-controlled cities are also
the most crime-ridden. Whereas, since Kennesaw, Georgia enacted an
ordnance *mandating* a firearm in every household 25 years ago, there have
been ZERO gun deaths. Not one.
Crime is caused by criminals, you silly little person. Do you think
criminals will meekly turn in their guns when the law-abiding are
disarmed? Do you think that if, deprived of guns, they won't find other
weapons? They will and they have- which is why the UK is today a much more
dangerous place than the US, with higher rates of every class of serious
crime except murder.
Fact: Gun control does not work. And so long as the State cannot defend
me from predators, then it is immoral and tyrannical for the State to
deprive me of the means of doing so.
But of course it's really irrelevant to discuss formerly-great Britain any
more, being as it is for now a fief of Brussels, and soon a satrapy of the
Caliphate. Enjoy your disarmed slavery, half-man.
I suppose the huge amount of people who have been murdered with knives and other weapons since guns were banned are feeling much less dead than if they had been shot. Murder is still murder no matter what the weapon of choice. And violent crime has greatly increased since the gun ban in Britian. No guns in Britian actually means DEFENSELESS VICTIMS IN BRITIAN, and consequently, emboldened criminals. Even in the rare cases where guns are difficult to obtain for criminals (i.e: Russia), violent crime is still greatly increased with the use of other weapons. Read a book, moron.
Since the adoption of the Maastrict Treaty in 1993, all UK persons are European CITIZENS.
The current year is 2010, do try to keep up.
so what is your govt. employment?
no lies here, loser…
The 'we' is that there is more than one person's input at this site, not that 'we' care about anything you think. Interestingly enough the lies and fabrications you spew roll off of you like water off a pregnant duck's back.
'No guns no gun crime' has been disproven. Period.
While we admitted a mistake- and remember, at one point in time it was determined that UK police carry guns- we figured that had happened. It was nipped in the bud, as the wiki article pointed out.
But you- propagandist, left wing disinformationist, and general dirtbag- have been proven wrong throughout the site but pretend you never heard it.
Here's one more for you, chump- today's Daily Mail headlines- you can look it up
UK leads Europe with 2,034 crimes per 100,000. Leads South Africa as well.
So you see, your blather- and it is just that- convinces no one of anything other than your complete and utter disingenuousness…
you are subjects of the Crown. The Maastrict treaty is a joke…
"Fact: London's armed robbery rate per capita is six times New York's"
source? figures?
Both the Metropolitan Police stats and the independent British Crime Survey show London violent crime at historic lows.
http://www.londonnet.co.uk/news/2010/jan/big-drop...
BCS survey graph – violent crime.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BCSVIOLENCE.jpg
And London accounts for a big chunk of all violent crime in the UK. I don't know where Kennesaw, Georgia is, or how big it is compared to London, but I can find lots of towns and places in the UK which are the opposite of Switzerland or Kennesaw, in that they
(a) Don't have any guns
and
(b) don't have any violent crime.
Crime is caused by criminals, but death is caused by r3tards with guns, who kill unarmed innocent people even when they are fully trained, like these trigger-happy policemen. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4712061.stm
(Then they lie about it, causing even less trust in armed police as a whole).
Meanwhile, the most serious form of violent crime, terrorism, is better dealt with by unarmed, non-r3tarded, highly-aware communities. If armed police or citizens had shot at this terrorist's vehicle which was "….packed with gas canisters ", they would all now be dead.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_w...
I'd rather be a victim of crime than a victim of death.
dcase, blather….. much?
"… and remember, at one point in time it was determined that UK police carry guns- we figured that had happened"
It was never 'determined', it was briefly suggested and overwhelmingly rejected by all parties concerned, as I already said.
And remember, your mistake was "nipped in the bud" by me linking the wiki, you asserted the opposite and then called me a liar, a fraud, and an ignoramus. All you have to do is read up.
keep going, it's getting funny now
the queen is about 4 foot tall, I reckon I can take her without the use of a gun
Got a great one for you here Mr Lott:
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23...
Armed police are surely the best solution to toy-helicopter-wielding-53-year-old-cancer-sufferers-who-happen-to-be-black. They are a serious problem in UK society. We deal with them appropriately.
Got a good one for you here – a deadly UK toy helicopter criminal
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23...
This was not an untrained shopkeeper with a gun, but the UK's finest publicly-funded Police armed response unit. They beat and were prepared to shoot and kill a 53-year old citizen for waving a toy helicopter in a shopping centre.
Now, why would "more guns mean more deaths, good guys and bad guys….?." Complete horseshit of course – there could have been loads of death and injury from the toy helicopter criminals in shopping centres.
ant the EU is a joke, as is the euro, and the Lisbon treaty- that's a peach as well. You are not going to win anything here…
Well, you are a liar- and a fraud…
Everyone of your assertions is just flat out wrong, but it doesn't seem to effect your mouth- connect your brain just once and you might learn something.
But that, of course wouldn't be you. So, despite the contempt we hold you in we are still somewhat fond of subjects of the Crown. By the way admit it- you do at least hum the internationale from time to time, don't you?
It is you- fraud, poseur and agent provocatuer- that needs to 'read up'…
I just love that – "substitute 'shot' with 'boot to the head' ",
In the UK on Saturday mornings, lots of people boot each other in the head, and no-one dies. It's positively encouraged, – people even do it professionally.
It's called rugby.
So yes, we are afraid of idiots with guns. Idiots with boots but no full-body-armour suits like in american football, are called rugby players, and are fairly harmless, if a bit stupid and drunk.
by the way, loser…
The BBC has apost about the police in Nottighamshire.
And guess what?
They're carrying guns. Seems gang crime has forced their hand.
Once more you are wrong. Give up and go back to the dark den from whence you came…
another thing we don't need guns to deal with – terrorists
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_w...
I note America gave up a lifelong opposition to torture to deal with terrorists, who caused the biggest homicide in New York for a long time. An armed populace would not have prevented the sad events of 9/11, but our unarmed baggage handlers prevented many deaths that day.
If any of the baggage handlers in Glasgow had been armed and opened fire, the van would have blown up, the terrorists would have 'won' (in their terms), the instigators would have been martyred, and a massive propaganda victory would have been handed to the terrorists on a plate – because many UK citizens would have died in the resulting explosion from the van which was "…packed with gas cannisters".
(I'm sorry to bring up 9/11 but an armed populace didn't prevent that disgusting violent crime in your great city New York, whereas this act of terrorism in Glasgow was prevented because the general populace had NO guns).
Hey P2O long time no see!
He is from the official moron recognition department. He was very efficient in your case, I would like to pay taxes for his further employment by the government, but I don't live in your country.
……"far, far more likely" is
(a) an exaggeration – it's a bit more likely at best, depending on how you measure crime
(b) should be expected a little bit anyway, since the US is a richer and more advanced society than the UK, with more resources available to devote to crime (intellectual, economic, etc)
(c) property crime on its own isn't injury or death, and if you are insured or not in poverty, property crime is fairly scary but not life-threatening, and is usually given a different category in crime stats. (eg attempted car theft from a public area)
I don't think the discussion should be restricted to gun crime, it should be widened to include fatal accidents with guns, friendly fire on training by police and citizens with guns, fatal shootings of the innocent by mistake by police or citizens with guns, and its consequent disastrous effect on confidence in the police, and the cost associated with that lack of confidence, and the general mistrust of the public with arming incompetent public servants like the police, and everything else related to gun ownership by a wide population.
One thing we can restrict – we can have this discussion without recommending everyone moves to Switzerland – euthanasia is legal for very good reasons – it's the dullest place on Earth, and it's hard to live with yourself if you can't take sides in a war between freedom and totalitarianism.
I'm digging the avatar Missy. Yeah, long story. Back in the mix now. Have to keep the intellectual knife sharp. I do wonder though, trading with these proglibs might actually be dulling it. Seems that as usual, cogent thought escapes them. I always hope that I will come across one that will be able to argue rationally. Perhaps that is too much to hope for.
Alright dipstick, this is it. You are absolutely delusional in your fear of guns. I will say, if you like to live in the rabbit hole, you should stay where you are.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1576406/28...
Guns are a tool which can be used for good or bad purposes. Is your personal safety a good thing or a bad thing? Is your family’s safety a good thing or a bad thing? I will not rehash the absurd notion that if all guns are banned you will be safe. Stay in your hole, I am sure no one will come along and use it for a toilet.
Thanks for the avatar compliment P2O, I needed to make sure I wasn't holding back any of my feelings about 'Chairman O'…
I have taken a break from the communique for a while since JoeHill has apparently appointed himself the keeper of fairness on the site.
In six months nobody will be able to recognize the place as a conservative think tank anymore, the monkeys have taken over the zoo…
: ) Apparently we share common paragraphs from the same story.
Another straight out lie – I read the exact same story and it says the Police in Nottinghamshire do not carry guns
"…liar, fraud and ignoramus."
Those 28 gun crimes per day include horrific crimes like possession of an air rifle in the boot of a car.
Would you be arrested and charged with a gun crime for that in the US? Or are you a cultural moral relativist, who believes different morality applies to people based on their geographical location and other accidents of birth?
Perhaps those 28 gun crimes also include the dangerous toy-helicopter criminals?
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23...
Guns are tools that even in the most highly trained professional hands, can be accidently used to inspire terror and mistrust. My family would be safer if I didn't have to worry about trigger-happy police threatening to shoot cancer sufferers in shopping centres – what an "absurd notion"!
Back to your hole Alice. Again, your notions lack logic and as an obvious progressive, your emotional sphincter is overrunning your humming bird brain. I will not waste time with your drivel any more.
Still waiting for an example from 2010 –
your link was to a story published in 2008.
Here is a direct quote from the story – "While gun-related deaths were down, from 55 to 49, the number of slight injuries, threats and non-injury incidents linked to guns increased."
Threats and non-injury. Scary stuff, I'm sure you will agree.
Authorised Firearms Officers wearing body armour, both armed with Heckler & Koch MP5 semi-automatic carbines and Glock 17 pistols.A firearms unit is a specialised, armed unit within each territorial police force in the United Kingdom.[1] For the most part, the police forces of the United Kingdom are unarmed; however, all have firearms units to provide the police force with the capability to deal with armed criminals. A police officer cannot apply to join the firearms unit without first finishing their two year probationary period, with a further two years in a core policing role.[2] Firearms unit is the most common name outside of the capital, while that of London's Metropolitan Police Service is called the Specialist Firearms Command, or CO19. Within the media it is sometimes compared to the SWAT units of the United States.
a little hunk of a wiki entry you conveniently 'forgot' about.
If you- demagogue, liar, fraud, and propagandist- want to be taken seriously (you're not) you need to do your homework.
The photo in the site 'Firearms Unit' shows the officers with MP-5's.
So, turns out our mea culpa was premature. We were right all along. Now, the first three bars of the 'internationale' go…
January 29 2010
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1246936/F...
come on now. just because you live in an entitlement society, don't expect us to do your work for you all the time.
From the person who boasted, just a few comments earlier, that "….It took me 90 seconds to pull up the articles from the UK refuting his tripe…."
2 days later, you managed one from 2008.
keep going, don't give up now, quitting is for libtards and toilet dwellers, isn't it?
We have Staurday games too. The body armor is for professionals looking to protect million $ careers.
At last! We have a winner. Finally found a story from 2010, after 100 tries!
The story is – Criminal kills other criminal with gun. Gene pool slightly improved.
not sure what gang on gang killing has to do with an armed general public, buy hey, it will have to do for now.
you said "the police are routinely armed and have submachine guns on the back seat"
the wiki says "For the most part, the police forces of the United Kingdom are unarmed"
I did not say the police were unarmed, that would be absurd. I said they were not routinely armed, and you called me a liar.
and who is this "we" you keep going on about?
It was you, personally, who said Bobbies on the beat carry arms. They don't. Grow up and take responsibility for your words.
your vey first post- 'no guns no gun crime' has been proven demonstrably wrong. You said they were UNARMED. You disputed the Nottighamshire incident.
According to the BBC post they had gang and drug problems and carry, or carried firearms. Your constant assertions have been 'no guns no gun crime'.
THAT, sir, is a lie. The Daily Mail yesterday posted violent crime per 100,000 numbers- and the UK led all of Europe. Doesn't that mean anything to you? Or are you such a blind ideologue that you just cannot see?
You also said "in the UK, gun crime soared following the introduction of the gun ban"
This is also a straight out falsehood.
no it isn't. In the UK, Australia, and New Zealand all of them saw increases in violent crime after firearms were confiscated. Wrong there as well…
if you weren't so self involved you might remember that we told you there were several people who input this site. Not that you care. Demagoguery is your intent.
Not discussion…
BP- "Criminal kills other criminal with gun. Gene pool slightly improved"
2/3 of the shootings here are drug/gang related.
BTW that was my first try thank you very much
oh, and in today's UK Telegraph the report is:
'Nottinghamshire accused of underreporting gun viollence'
This is starting to cascade upon you. Quit before you make a bloody fool of yourself…
A hammer is not a screwdriver, is not a lawnmower. right tool for the right job.
They treat suppliers very badly by suing them form the crimes that were committed with the gun instead of focusing on the person that actually pulled the trigger or used the gun in the crime. Now a days when a gun is involved with a crime the victim sues the business who supplied the gun, the distributor of the gun, and the manufacture of the gun.
Let me ask this:
If a car is used in a crime should the auto dealer, auto maker and all his suppliers be sued because the car the manufactured was used in a crime?
congratulations on being able to repeat word for word what Mr Lott said in his article. I have already questioned Mr Lott on his source for this assertion, and so far he has provided a graph which goes up to 2002, and a link to a letter he wrote.
Here is the independent, authoritative British Crime Survey, again, which shows the opposite.
I would leave Mr Lott to substantiate his own assertions with evidence, since he is obviously able to understand what a URL is and use them to back up his case, albeit not very well in this case.
Hint: A URL is a clever thing that allows people to universally locate resources, so they can debate actual evidence instead of mere assertion.
URL for British Crime Survey figures, which go up to 2009.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BCSVIOLENCE.jpg
The British Crime Survey interviews people, not the police, and asks them if they have been the victims of crime. It specifically does not ask the the Nottinghamshire constabulary, or any other police force, for their statistics.
It shows UK crime decreasing.
Here it is again.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BCSVIOLENCE.jpg
I would leave Mr Lott to substantiate his own assertions with evidence, since he is obviously able to understand what a URL is and use them to back up his case, albeit not very well in this case.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BCSVIOLENCE.jpg
Can you give me the source of the Telegraph story? If not I will just go out and buy it and see if it says what you are quoting.
government-the organized and legalized use of force.
BP-"backed up with moral principles tried and tested over thousands of years."
history shows that the greatest threat to individual liberty is not fellow individuals, it is governments.
your 21st century means are just chains of a different kind. Proceed as you wish. I have no desire to be a test rat for something that cannot be undone.
still around, eh?
Your counter arguments are either weak, or in this case nonexistent. You ignore all evidence that doesn't fit your world view.
And you are in a site where not a soul either believes you- or wnats to hear from you.
You have become tiresome…
and wiki entries, as your first disingenuous entry shows, are never the final, nor always accurate word. 'Stuff' in; 'stuff' out, as they say.
As Mark Twain once famously said: 'there are facts, statistics, and damn lies' So this post is only as good as the 'facts' that went into it.
Ultimately you aren't getting anywhere…
it was their 3 March issue- you can see it online. The police are accused of underreporting gun crime. As you make perfectly clear, it is a hot button issue across the pond…
We also gave you / ourselves the BBC –
check out tonight's BBC 4 listing for advert-free metal heaven – all for about 200 of your american dollars.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/programmes/schedules+bbc+4+... target=”_blank”>http://66.102.9.132/search?q=cache:X-iofRk0sGcJ:< ...” target=”_blank”>http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/programmes/schedules+bbc+4+...
3.
21:00–22:30
Heavy Metal Britannia
Documentary which traces the origins and development of British heavy metal.
4.
22:30–23:00
Heavy Metal Britannia at the BBC
Performances from the BBC archive, including Iron Maiden, Black Sabbath and Judas Priest.
5.
23:00–00:00
Iron Maiden: Live in Concert
A 60-minute concert filmed in different cities around the world in early 2008.
Late
1.
00:00–00:50
Rock Family Trees
Series 2, Sabbath Bloody Sabbath
2/6. Black Sabbath have caused outrage with their lifestyles as well as their lyrics. (R)
2.
00:50–02:20
Heavy Metal Britannia
Documentary which traces the origins and development of British heavy metal. (R)
I sort of think we invented it, but you perfected it. Metallica do the wibbly thing better, and Slayer do the riffs and satan nonsense better.
it used to be kings, now it's governments, whatever, we're still here, thanking God every day that we are not Swiss.
Neither is Mr Lott. He uses statistics, or at least, tries to.
I don't need the internet, I will walk down the road to the publicly funded library, which has stood for 113 years and withstood 2 world wars, without ever failing to function as a library, thanks to taxpayers. We've had a free national health service for the last 60 years thanks to taxpayers as well. Don't think I will be in any danger of being shot though, or see any taxpayer funded armed police.
I will look up the story in the actual paper of March 3, and get back to you.
Scratch that, its 1am and there's a documentary about Black Sabbath on the BBC (also publicly funded, so no adverts either)
ok sure wikis are unreliable.
Here's the "stuff going in" – (from the graph's subtitle)
" … Statistics come from Home Office statistical publication "Crime in England and Wales 2008/09" '
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs10/hosb0110….
page 11 shows homicide declining despite
1. Year 2005/06 includes 52 victims of the 7 July London bombings.
2. Year 2003/04 includes 20 cockle pickers who drowned in Morecambe Bay.
3. Year 2002/03 includes 172 victims of Dr Harold Shipman.
4. Year 2000/01 includes 58 Chinese nationals who collectively suffocated in a lorry en route in the UK.
All after the handgun ban in 1997.
So the UK homicide rate includes lots of deaths with no guns. The amount of deaths due to guns in the UK is nothing compared to the US. It's because we don't have guns.
(… and Mark Twain famously said "there are lies, damn lies, and statistics". But not famous enough for you to quote him correctly….)
Well, here in the UK we live in the year 2010, the 21st century, so we try to use 21st century means to combat crime, like technology, before we use 16th Century means like guns.
The reason we do this is that, like St Thomas Aquinas and the Christian Church, we hold the radical, leftist view that the Just War theory governs the use of violence – whereby
- violence is always to be used as a last resort,
- never as an end in itself
- proportionate to the harm caused or threatened, that is, – sufficient only to prevent the harms caused or threatened, and no more.
I assume the writers of your nation's constitution were Christians and thought the same way?
Perhaps they also thought people in the 21st Century would be enlightened enough to realise that the right to bear arms was not the right to "bring a gun to a knife fight." If there was a knife fight in the offing, I would bring lots and lots of people trained in self-defence, with their help, I would disarm the guy with the knife, and then hand him over to the authorities, a bit like how the Scottish baggage handlers acted in the failed terrorist attack, saving many lives in the process precisely because they did not have guns.
Right tool for the right job. 21st century technology, backed up with moral principles tried and tested over thousands of years.
In the UK – the leader of the government gets interrogated like this, by an unarmed public, for 8 hours straight, in public, on all TV news channels, today:
Brown denies starving UK troops of cash in Iraq war
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8552593.st...
The former leader / president Tony Blair was also interrogated like this for the 5th time a few weeks ago.
I genuinely don't feel afraid of the leader of the government in the UK, or the former leader. Both are in fact afraid of us, an unarmed populace.
Why are you Americans so scared of your governments? Why don't you simply control them like us? We don't need guns to control our government.
Perhaps it's because you have never heard your leaders and former leaders interrogated publicly over their decisions?
We have heard our leaders several times, their lies unravel, and now they are scared of us. Blair doesn't spend a great deal of time in the UK anymore, and needs a serious amount of security wherever he goes.
Right or wrong, a former leader is scared of us, the UNARMED populace of the UK.
We keep our government in check without guns. Why not rise to the same challenge in the US?
one reply, zero substance, that's your Lott
one can cherry pick statistics to make just about any argument. There is enough empirical evidence to back up the claim made here that an armed citizenry has huge upsides- with a caveat.
Responsibility.
once again, there is some evidence the 'home office' is cooking the books, as the UK Guardian post showed.
Plus the death rate per 100,000 in violent crime indicates your country might be fighting a losing battle.
This thread has hit a wall. There are other thing to occupy our time rather than quibble with you…
scared of you?….Hahahahah
you guys are on your way to becoming an EU colony!!!! And a non english speaking muslim one at that!!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1252926/C...
while you guys are chatting with a has been your country is being stolen right out from under you. BTW, remember Watergate? Just the other day, a powerful senator was forced out of a powerful commitee position. Not likely to make international news, but happens here all the time.
FYI, we TALK about the 2nd AD all the time, but its really just a last ditch all else has failed sort of thing. Sorta like those floating seatcusions on a plane.
powerful senator my arse.
This is the former "president" Blair we are talking about, he can't set foot in his own country. His own (unarmed) country.
Contrast with Margaret Thatcher, who retired to a nice suburb of south london, – accorded absolute respect by the right, grudging respect from the left. But not subject to lynch mob.
2nd AD the last resort? It often seems like there is a desperation to use your guns, "prise it from my cold dead fingers" and all that crap you go on about.
The EU is well on the way to becoming our colony (remember we are good at this colonising thing).
London is Europe's financial centre, if not the world's. Socialised capitalism is causing Germany problems with Greece, nothing to do with us, we have our own currency called the pound which is worth 1.5x your dollar.
Non-english-speaking? We both already sorted that problem by making English the world's business language. I've got a feeling we won't be "an EU colony and a non-english speaking muslim blah blah " any time soon, but hey we have only been up against the muslims for, what, 500 years already? Not too worried about the current hysteria.
by the way – according to the Daily Mail you are so fond of quoting, what is currently causing cancer, and what is curing it?
http://thedailymailoncologicalontologyproject.wor...
Cultural factors, not availability of firearms, seems to set the murder rate. The history of statistics tome "Against the Odds", notes that London had roughly 10 murders a year in the mid-1630's, while Paris had roughly one a night.
Point is–You Brits have always been a rather civilized lot. In the days when all it took to carry a handgun was a 10-shilling license, the UK murder rate was lower than it is now.
As for us free-range yanks: When you take out groups that are missing in the UK such as inner city blacks, hispanics, and traditional Southern whites ( don't mess with 'em ) the US murder rate resembles that of (say) France. BTW, over half of all US murders are committed by blacks, who represent about 14% of the population. Cultural and economic factors plus the War on Drugs explain most of the difference.
Most of my middle-western relatives have a firearm around somewhere. A gun is a farming tool just like a plow. As far as I know, none of them or their neighbors ever commited a murder. It just isn't done.
Similarly, I live in an affluent neighborhood in a large Southern city around a bunch of hispanics and middle-easterners. Until recently, our state senator was of Chinees ancestry. Most, if not all, of us are gun-owners. We also do not shoot each other.
Perhaps you are of the "White Man's Burden" school, that we should give up our rights just because some people abuse them.
US Murder statistics: 2008
at: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2008/offenses/expanded...
Perps by race:
Total 16,277 Whites: 5,334 Blacks: 5,943 other: 273 unknown: 4,727
So if you take out murders committed by blacks, the US rate drops by more than half. Drop out traditional southern whites and Hispanics ( who commit murder at about twice the rate of other whites ) and suddenly the US murder rate drops to about that of a typical European country.
None of these sub-groups exists as such in the UK. BTW, most of these murders are internal to the group. I.e., blacks kill other blacks and whites kill other whites. The extraordinarily-high black murder rate is the result of the Perfect Storm of cultural and economic factors crossed with the malignant effects of the War on Drugs.
Yes, C. Rangle has been a senator for 40 yrs
prise it from my cold dead fingers- well, yes. A weapon is only as strong as the resolve to use it. I think France and Italy have proven that. So for the 2nd to be a credible deterent, their can be no doubt
From the outside, it looks like the EU is gobbling up everything in its path. Oh, how did the Lisbon Treaty referendum go? Ha, just a lie to keep the sheeple in line until its too late. I have heard rumors Lord Rothchild, with the Queens blessing is actually running the EU, but this is not substantiated
The intentional destabilizing of your society is an established fact. While the UK jerks around with a non existential issue like Iraq, you should be stringing up the traitors who have been proven to be destroying your society.
Nice chatting, but this thread can't support this many replies and is killing my computer. You can catch up with me on any of the "Big" sites.
I'm not a moral cultural relativist, and I think David Hume is right that you can't derive an "ought" from an "is" (the naturallistic fallacy).
Surely the more important discussion is whether people should or should not be allowed to own guns. I think they should not be allowed to own guns, regardless of accidents of birth, geographical location, and skin pigmentation.
ok well we got quite near the right hand margin, so that is an acceptable amount of ranting
I mean that in a good way, can't beat a good bit of ranting
[...] Lott, the author of More Guns, Less Crime, has an updated edition coming out in which he argues that every time gun bans have been tried, murder rates have [...]
Mr Lott:
"More guns, less crime"
translation:
The government should maximise gun ownership, for the common good
BritishPerson
"no guns, no gun crime"
translation:
The government should minimise gun ownership, for the common good
There is no middle moral ground, based on facts about blacks.
Crime will always be with us. Aquinas tells us how to respond to force with force – as the last resort, proportionate, and sufficient to remedy the situation.
Gun crime shouldn't always be with us. Simply minimise gun ownership.
Or go live in Switzerland, and legally euthanise yourself because you can't face the WW2 guilt – does that count as a historical example of the consequences of gun ownership? A sort-of "well at least we looked after ourselves, with our guns" attitude?
"Blacks and Hispanics, none of which exist in the UK"
I live here, I beg to differ. I have seen both recently:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colombians_in_the_Un...
"Colombians constitute the UK's second largest Latin American group, and on a global scale the community ranks as the world's fourth largest overseas Colombian population."
I don't know who was rioting in the UK in the 1980s if it wasn't the blacks, but I'm sure you are right, there are no blacks here.
so your conclusion is – if it wasnt' for blacks and hispanics, there would be no crime? We've got both. Not too many white southern nutjobs though, I will be the first to admit.
just one right is all I want you to give up – give up the right to whinge endlessly based on no evidence at all that maximising gun ownership should be the most important imperative for government. More guns, less crime, is bs.
[...] John Lott at Big Government [...]
Whywouldacriminalfollowthelaw?
I think you are missing the point! We know criminals will always find a way to gain access to guns, the real issue is the non-criminal!
The issue of "home defense" or protection against intruders or assailants may well be misrepresented. A study of 626 shootings in or around a residence in three U.S. cities revealed that, for every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides. Over 50% of all households in the U.S. admit to having firearms. In another study, regardless of storage practice, type of gun, or number of firearms in the home, having a gun in the home was associated with an increased risk of firearm homicide and suicide in the home. Persons who own a gun and who engage in abuse of intimate partners such as a spouse are more likely to use a gun to threaten their intimate partner. Individuals in possession of a gun at the time of an assault are 4.46 times more likely to be shot in the assault than persons not in possession. It would appear that, rather than being used for defense, most of these weapons inflict injuries on the owners and their families.
In one survey, 10% of families admitted to having unlocked and loaded firearms within easy reach of children . Another study showed that two-thirds of accidental firearms injuries occured in the home, and one-third involved children under 15. 45% were self-inflicted, and 16% occurred when children were playing with guns. A recent showed that twice as many people died from unintentional firearm injuries in states in the U.S. where firearm owners were more likely to store their firearms loaded.
You are a part of the problem …..liberalism !! I was born in 1945 with the homicide rate per 100,000 higher than in 2009. Explain that since there are millions more guns today than in 1945. Give a straight answer without the typical liberal spin (LIES). MORE guns equal LESS crime. Or you may comment on SWITZERLAND and their decision to arm their citizens with GUNS. Discussion with a liberal is Bla Bla Bla Bla and then Bla Bla Bla BS !!
As a matter if fact there is significant crime in UK. Storngly contradicatory to your statement, the fact is gun crime was significantly lower in UK before the laws to tighten gun control were passed on; gun crime has bieng suffiently rising after that.
And dont be silly, there are guns in UK, gun owenrship is legal, but it has to be rigestered and most of gun crime is commited by sized illegal weapons.
Controlling people on thier right to bear firearms is not democratic; you are infring thier right to own and bare a firearm(s) if they want. I mean if you dont like firearms fair enough on you, but it doenst mean you have inforce your opinions down on other peoples throats.
Besides most firearm owners partifcapte in variety of sport shooting diescplines; its thier hobby, sport and intressts, to which they are fully intitled to, because again of demcoracy.
In countries like Finland, Swissland, Israel, Belgium, Czech republic, Slovakia, Norway, etc, gun owenship is high, nevertheless, gun crime is rare, and again is done by illegaly owned weapons. This means that its not the amount of gun owenship that contributes to gun crime, but society and the kind of people who own the weapons.
Indeed, original intent of firearms is to harm and kill, and that is to harm and kill the right sort of people; terrorirsts, organised crime mob, dangerous criminals and mass murderers, and enemy combatants.
Disagree, that was an accident and accident only. Accidents happen, and do you knpw for information, according to statisitics figures suffient people die from automobiles, so you logic is to start banning autombiles too now? You cant just take one simple example and clin on to it. People die from other kind of accidents involoning DIY tools, households, etc and it too is rare.
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[...] [...]
[...] 3-1-2010: Here is a blog post that links to some information about how crime rises as a result of gun bans and lowers when those [...]
Cowboy Logic – I have been wondering about what would happen if I did this, you said you have been handcuffed before for it, I would love to hear the story! How did you get out of it, and what was the officers response/facial expression when you showed him the card?
I'm temped to write no sh_t sherlock here, but I would think most sensible people (and I realize that rules out millions) ought to know it gives punks pause if they have to worry that granny might be packin. .
Nice job Mr. Lott, I hope the Supremes read this before ruling on McDonald vs Chicago
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