ACORN: Coming to an Illinois Voting Booth Near You?
by John BambenekWhen ACORN was caught stacking voter rolls with fake names leading up to the 2008 election, we stood up and took notice. Maybe an aberration, maybe part of a plan to undermine our system of elections. On Election Day, Black Panthers were inside a Pennsylvania polling station intimidating voters. They ultimately got off and the prosecutor who went after them was “reassigned”. Still, maybe it is simply coincidence. What if a high-profile state Attorney General argued that voters have no right to vote in secret?
I’m not talking about Card Check, I’m talking about the voting all of us do in every election. Consider the following words argued in Champaign County Court in Illinois by the Illinois Attorney General’s office headed by Lisa Madigan:
While plaintiff attempts to suggest to the Court that there is a fundamental right to a secret ballot, no such right exists. (bottom of Page 11 of pleading)
The Attorney General’s office argues that the United States Constitution, nor any fundamental right, protect a voter from being able to vote in secret. In effect, this means that it is only out of mere courtesy that the government doesn’t simply sit in the voting booth with you making sure you are making “fully informed decisions”.
The words need no parsing, read them for yourself. Lisa Madigan is no outsider. She is the daughter of the immensely politically powerful House Speaker, Michael Madigan. Michael Madigan is also chair of the Democratic Party of Illinois. When Blagojevich became a liability (after he was arrested), Michael Madigan saw him run out of town on a rail. The Madigans are the political power family of Illinois.
If they’re pushing for something, you take it seriously. And they’re pushing to take away your right to a secret ballot in Illinois. The matter at hand was created by a seemingly innocuous piece of legislation passed in 2007. The bill, SB 662, clocked in at almost 200 pages. A few clauses require error checking of a ballot. If you didn’t vote in certain races on a ballot, the voting machine will reject your ballot. There are many legitimate reasons to undervote (decline to vote in a particular race), first and foremost, because it’s your ballot and you should be able to vote however you darn well please.
The law requires the machine to reject the ballot and an election judge to come down and talk to you. At first, they’ll ask you to vote in all the races or to destroy the ballot and go home. At the election judge’s ultimate discretion, they can “override” the machine and process the vote anyway. But if you don’t vote in a way the establishment likes, you have an election judge standing over you (and your ballot) talking to you about it.
Seems minor, but the Attorney General isn’t saying this interaction violates the secret ballot. The Attorney General argues you have no right to a secret ballot in the first place. This issue came to light because a reform-minded Republican candidate for Governor in Illinois stood up to the Chicago-machine Democrats. Senator “Dede Scozzafava” Dillard voted to pass the bill. Another was too busy to vote, Senator Brady. Yet another was working for a city government last year who put armed guards in a polling station themselves.
Technically, the regulations (not the law) require the election judge to not look at a voter’s ballot. Of course, there are no real penalties if they do. With Chicago’s storied history of voter fraud, that regulation is a bit like asking a teenage boy to go to a strip club but not look at any of the girls.
The one things separating the United States from the many banana republics of the world that does have “voting rights” is that our elections have secret ballots free of voter intimidation. This statement by the Illinois Attorney General taken to its conclusion would allow ACORN workers to “help” voters inside the voting booth to make sure they didn’t make mistakes. Or worse, Black Panthers could handle poll security.
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175 Comments
Why would you have to vote in all races…maybe you do not like the people on the ballet or I have seen the two people to vote for were from the same party…..They never stop trying to steal votes
Please fix this. It's probably the opposite of what you meant.
"The Attorney General’s office argues that the United States Constitution, nor any fundamental right, protect a voter from being able to vote in secret."
Well the separation of church and State isn't in the Constitution. I guess we can only do what the left says is Constitutional.
Can you say "Scary as all hell."?
We should just have "THE CHOSEN ONE" tell the voters who to vote for and ACORN & the Panthers can help us! What's the beef? That would be way more Inclusive then just taking upon oneself the stress and opportunity to fail that voting brings. "THE CHOSEN ONE" could just decide and all of our problems would be solved.
You know there is a problem with your ideals when you plot to hide its real identity. And when intimidation is the method of education.
Quite frankly Chicago. Your mess. You clean it up. We are already cleaning up the mess WE INHERITED from you. Thanks for nothing.
Ironic that the city which gives us a model of transparency in the CBOE gave us this POTUS. I guess for 20 years Rev. Wright didn't carve out much time teaching options strategy.
There is no right to vote. Perhaps this could be used to keep people who receive any kind of welfare from voting?
The next Black Panthers that show up at the polls with billy clubs will have those clubs inserted in their Holebamas. We're not going to put up with that crap anymore, even if A-Holder gives them a pass.
[...] Read more…. [...]
There's more of us than there is of them.
Being from Chicago, I ask: What's a secret ballot? The secret ballot in Chicago has never existed in primary elections. As anyone from Chicago knows, the "real" election is the primary election, especially mayoral. When I lived in the city and voted in the primaries, the Democratic precinct captain was one of the "judges" or so-called election monitors. Now, what do you think would have happened if I chose a republican ballot? Besides being a waste of time, do you think I would get my garbage can replaced or the potholes in the alley in front of my garage filled in? Not in a million years…
The Illinois Atty. General's daddy is the one who had true power in the state. Here is an article from the Tribune about Michael Madigan.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-100121-mad...
WOW! Even those in the position of power are in denial to what the law is. Let it be known, We the People do not need for AG Lisa Madigan to tell us what the law does or does not say! Ignorance is No Excuse and those in Chitcago are obviously IGNORANT! What a pathetic disgrace that the people in Chitcago would let an Idiotic Moran like AG Lisa Madigan represent them.
Isnt there so way WE THE PEOPLE can remove scum like Lisa Madigan and her corrupt daddy Mike from office? Pols like Madigan deserve to be treated like there pal, Khalid sheik Mohamhead
"The law requires the machine to reject the ballot and an election judge to come down and talk to you. At first, they’ll ask you to vote in all the races or to destroy the ballot and go home. At the election judge’s ultimate discretion, they can “override” the machine and process the vote anyway. But if you don’t vote in a way the establishment likes, you have an election judge standing over you (and your ballot) talking to you about it."….
Are you kidding me?? Is this still the United States of America or not??!!! This is pure b/s!!!
Hey, we have the same AG siding with Chicago arguing that the Bill of Rights doesn't apply to state and local government. In Illinois, there are not rights, just privileges……..wait…..
Welcome to the polls comrade! I see you failed to vote for the party candidate, please follow me down the hall where you will be given a few moments to appeal to the politburo for the commutation of your death sentence to life in the gulag…
Why should those on welfare be deprived of the right to vote? What part of being poor nullifies your right to participate in our democracy? I'm assuming that you misspoke, that statement is so horrendously unpatriotic…
Still stirring the ACORN pot I see ey John? Even after pimpdaddy got caught at the same dirty tricks that ACORN had accused him of… and even though ACORN has never been indicted for anything related to voter fraud. In fact, they are working with the prosecution in Ohio to convict people who actually committed fraud… what few they could find.
Guess you always need a whipping boy to blame when you lose elections. It must never be the voters rejection of your ideas.
Boy are you right-on…I lived in Bridgeport…and the Precinct
Captain would come door to door and pass out money to
get people to vote…Since I haven't been voting in Chicago
for 30 years, I don't know if it's still that way…My Mom owned
a business, and she was afraid not to vote Democrat for
fear they would harrass her..It certainly is a corrupt city!!
I don't think that A) the Black Panthers were there to intimidate voters, but rather to assuage any concerns that people would be wrongly denied the right to cast a vote… Personally I think that if you're not there to vote, or already have, it's time to move along. And B) you probably aren't going to see many of them at your personal polling place
Huh? There is nothing stating that the wealthy business owners receiving "government welfare" in the form of tax abatements and credits should not be allowed to vote so why should other recipients of government assistance?
Sorry, but it is. It's part of the First Amendment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_t...
Easy they can vote themselves a raise.
My name says it all, Mr. Stan. Lets Get Rational. Maybe you can explain what you mean?
Andy Stein said we see how they vote,we know their they live.
And what were the billy clubs for? Get real. I don't want to see any at my polling place.
Or maybe you didn't know about all the issues/races on the ballot in time to do enough research on them. Missouri has votes on judges that are often like that for me. I've never heard of the guy, didn't know he was on the ballot, and you want me to give an up or down on him?
You got a good point in regards to VA, NJ, MA the people overwhelmed the ability of the left (ACORN) to cheat, more coming in 11/10. Mik you are a faithful leftist defender usually wrong, but the loyal opposition non the less. Why would you defend a corrupt organization like ACORN?
No, it's not. The first amendment only stipulates that government can't make a law to establish a religion. There's a difference.
The leftwing cretins are nothing short of thugs. The black panthers intimidating voters should have been shot and the ACORN degenerates with fake ballots should have had their arms broken.
Eric Holder should also have his arms broken. Only in a stupid society where an economically illiterate community organizing leftwing agitator could become president could a two legged rodent with deep conflicts of interests become AG.
In Nov we have to stop this leftwing clown car before they take us over the cliff.
"When in doubt, vote him out."
If you don't contribute financially to the tax pot but derive your living from it, what do you care about how much government spends or what they spend it on. In fact limiting government and tax breaks become only a possible drain on your hand-outs.
If you have no skin in the game, then why should you vote to effect those who do?
It's not like those who would be ruled out of voting due to government hand outs couldn't reverse that situation by providing for themselves.
and even though ACORN has never been indicted for anything related to voter fraud.
You ignorant fool; are you chris matthews? There have been ACORN indictments in more than 11 states. Maybe you're Hussein just making up bullshyt as you go along.
I like being rational AND realistic. Billyclub=intimidation.
Like I said, I don't think anyone should be "milling about" a polling place. But I also think the stories of widespread intimidation are hyperbolic at best.
Based on prior experience, I'd say the billy clubs were for any racists that decided to try to close the polling place or unjustly knock people off the rolls. What neocons do with money and influence, the poor do with pitchforks and torches.
Well Mr. Rational, my comment needs no explanation.
I'm sorry, and you think that's different how?
Just because you disagree with my opinions doesn't make me wrong. You didn't lose both houses of congress and the presidency because of good government and great ideas. You lost because your ideas were applied and they failed. And if you convince voters to give you another try they will fail again… just like they have always failed.
Hate to rain on anybody's parade, but this "Union thing" is what progressives started long ago and are using to destroy America, as obama said, as you know it!
Those are not ACORN indictments. They are people who took advantage of their position as ACORN contractors. ACORN is working to put these people behind bars.
But if you have an indictment that lists ACORN as a defendant, why don't you share it with us here. They are public record and should not be difficult to find if they exist. If not then maybe you owe me an apology for your crude blogging behavior and filthy language.
They run away when you even the odds.
My, how completely un-American of you
Can you point me to anything in our history that indicates the intent of the founding fathers was to keep the poor from participating in the democracy?
You have never been forced to rely on welfare or you wouldn't make such silly comments about "deriving a living" or "providing for themselves". I'm sure the single, black, mother of 6 your mind has crafted as the "prototypical" welfare recipient makes you angry, but it's far from the truth. It would be the same as me thinking every conservative is a stuffy white suburbanite with a white collar job, an addiction to keeping up with the joneses, and a deep seated desire to see everyone else do worse than themselves. It makes me angry, but does not fairly represent the facts.
One of the most basic tenants of our Republic is the idea that no one is cut out of the process of governing, be they poor, weak, unintelligent, misguided, misanthropic, elitist, or whatever other label you feel makes them less of a person in the eyes of the government. It is to protect them from people like yourself.
Heheh, touche!
Well, ok, if you insist…
If you mean the poor can "vote themselves a raise" well, share that little gem of info, please! I'd like one pronto!
It's been fun Stan, but maybe you should head for the Kiddie sandbox if you can't put your point into words.
Eric A-HOLEder is a dingleberry hanging around the oval orifice occupied by that turd, Obama.
Rather than Worry about "Rich or Poor" wouldn't it make more sense to limit the right to vote to citizens who have served the country? Either by serving in the military or some of the other organizations that require a period of servce. (Peace Corps come to mind) I you are not willing to support the country by donating precious time, you wouldn't have the right to run for office or vote. You would retain all other right. Check out Robert A. Heinlein's book Starship Trooper. It's his idea. Read the Book don't watch the movie.
Read the text "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". People seem forget the last part. The left pretends it wasn't written due to their tortured interpretation. A simple view of history would show why the founding FATHERS put this in. To prevent a state controlled religion that could persecute individuals that were not members of said religion, not to remove religion from public life or public servants.
Repeating a lie you were told is the same as lying. Please research properly before you post lies.
Illinois has an early ballot provision and I have already voted. I don't vote for candidates in primary elections that have no opponents, so several of the races on my (GOP) ballot were unmarked. When I fed it into the machine the computer readout said that there were some unmarked races–I don't recall the exact terms. The machine had accept/reject buttons. I hit accept as soon as the readout came up. The election judge did not try to intervene, so I can't complain about my expereince with this machine.
However, after having read this post, I can see where there is plenty of opportunity for abuse with this system.
Well we're just looping, but I don't understand why you think that economic class should dictate whether or not you get a vote on how this country is governed.
But better than that, you tell me: How much money does one need to make a year to qualify to vote? What level of government assistance should deny you the right to vote? Do student loans count? Tax abatements for real estate development? Or just ones for food stamps and other sustenance welfare?
Right, and how is weaving the beliefs and tenants of a religion into the fabric of government not a state-backed religion? I know this can be hard for anyone with a Christian background to understand, but I'm positive many U.S. Citizens of Muslim, Buddhist, and other non-Christian sects see it as less innocuous than you do.
Now I will concede that the inclusion of one religion does not really mean the EXCLUSION of all others, but the separation of Church and State is real, is in the constitution, and is what makes us one of the great societies.
Surely the 9th amendment covers this, Basically says that just because we don't list a right doesn't mean that you don't have it as a right….
This issue is covered by the 9th amendment, The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. Although largely ignored, it's in there….
I thought that when I first read the sentence, but if you read it over again slowly, what he's saying does make sense.
agreed however we should put morality ammendment in the parchement. This would have solved many problems.
if you don't pave the roads, you shouldn't be allowed to drive on them.
if you don't make televisions, you shouldn't be allowed to watch the news.
if you can't build your own computer, you shouldn't be allowed to use the internet.
it's a shame that none of these make sense, but when you talk about money it's somehow fair to use the same logic?
lol exactly. 3 generations of welfare families is patriotic? Maybe you need to serve two years in the armed forces before your eligable for an entitlement.
Hmm, but my does that tangle things… Whose morals? Yours or mine?
By "THE CHOSEN ONE" you mean chosen by the voters of the United States of America, right?
I don't like to hear the right to vote thrown out, even in jest (which I am very hopeful is what Stan H was doing,)
The African Americans in this country have gone through hell and back for the right to vote. I'm a conservative. I live in the south. I'm very sensitive to any statements that give a hint of racism. It's not a joke here. I also hate the radical '60's revolution that would put black panthers at a voting station to intimidate voters. Or ACORN fixing elections.
But let's not joke about the right to vote. Thank God, no matter who you are in this country, black, white, hispanic, poor, rich… we all have the right to vote.
BTW, the link in the article to Cicero having armed guards at its polling station is, at least from a very cursory first look through, about a Republican putting them there for intimidation. Corruption and tactics like this are the problem. No matter who or what they come from.
Being on welfare or not has nothing to do with one's "patriotism". I'm sure many who served in WWII or Korea or VietNam and later ended up on public assistance would agree.
Don't put the Peace Corps and the Military in the same sentence.erp
Brilliant!
Gentlemen, the facts are as follow, you do have a right to vote, Currently, only U.S. citizens can vote in U.S elections. Each state determines which citizens have the right to vote in that state. But over time national laws in the form of Constitutional amendments have made clearer who may not be excluded. Please…
Man, get that to a bona fide journalist who'd love to do an in-depth story; i.e. someone like Brett Beier (sp?) at Fox. What a story that would make! I'd never heard of anything like that before your post!
there might not be a specific 'right to vote' … but there sure are a lot of efforts to forbid anyone from being denied the right to vote, for any reason.
but, I am sure that the trivial fact that you make more money than me gives you plenty of power to shape the constitution as you see fit.
surely the very fact that our constitution has been so passionately dedicated to protecting the right to vote, for everyone, means something about the very nature of our country?
we live in a society, not a country club.
Why? Just because most of the MSM didn't cover them it must not have been as bad as it was made out to be? That makes no sense, especially with the way the media picks and chooses which stories to follow.
Progressivsm is hands down the most destructive "religion" in history…the runner up is islam. Just think, the progressives have a "god" which is ultimately themselves but collectively accepted as the government. They have a set of "commandments." Such as pro-choice, sexual indulgance, white people are guilty…as well as the US and of course Britain. They have a "paradise" which is socialism run by some despot claiming to be for the good of the people…much in similarity to the one running the country now. But of course Obama can't quite do everything that he or the progressives wish he could…such as seizing the airwaves, internet, healthcare and throwing all opposition into concentration camps or gulags. To bad we can't sever "church" and state. By the way how does Obama's islamist background effect his decisions concerning America's safety??? I would give anything to have Bush back…of course he is just a stupid Christian.
Manufactuering votes by destroying urban areas in the name of equality is American?
I like how the machine rejects the ballot if you don't vote in every election!! Sounds like they are making lists of who doesn't vote often so the Dem's can start voting for you in all elections to put thier people in place!! Talk about Fu(ked up!!!
HA ! That moron O'Keefe was arrested! Brilliant!
You sir, project a lot of your own religious hang-ups on others.
And the Christians, at last count, have been just as responsible for wars and genocides as most other religions, if not a bit moreso by sheer duration of rule through the middle centuries.
Just another example of how if you get caught doing the lefts dirty work they will throw you under the bus!!
actually, the more I think of it, the more terrified I am that someone like you even has the audacity to suggest such a thing as stripping away someone's right to vote, for any reason.
how dare you even imply that such a vital aspect of our freedom, our very foundation, be wrenched away from ANY citizen?
maybe we can find some loophole to ensure that you, sir, are punished for your unpatriotic beliefs!
I'd love to respond, can you clarify your point a bit? Who is doing the manufacturing and the destroying?
What part of "Eric A-HOLEder is a dingleberry hanging around the oval orifice occupied by that turd, Obama" is a lie? I believe that is called opinion, something we are still at this moment free to have and express!!
Those boys are heroes! The should be applauded for trying to wiretap Sen. Mary Landrieu's office – illegal or not. Oops, I got to run, my Mom made me a grilled cheese sandwhich.
Can't we do something about these annoying liberal comments?
Brilliant in the 57th state!
Even worse we would have to listen to katie and matt talk about the "historic" aspect of all of it.
Weaving the (religious) beliefs?
Into the fabric of government?
When you put it those terms, I suppose "We the people.." are on shaky grounds.
Lisa Madigan , seeing how you are a product of the Chicago Irish Mafia and thus, did not exactly earn your position, you better brush up on constitutional law.
It's going to get pretty heavy with all these eradication of the church from the state people experts like L.G.R.
Irrational non sequitur posing as an intelligent comment!
I guess Big Government blog is a Big Success blog because the trolls are out in force. Libs finally figured out that the real information gets transmitted via blogs, not the media and sent their minions out to spread the party line.
A couple things:
1. Those with entitlements aka welfare have just about reached 50% of our population. These are the people ACORN/SEIU have targeted to add to the voter registry. They'll always vote for the sugar daddies because they don't pay taxes or contribute to the general welfare, they're parasites — and they'll also register thousands of fictitious voters to give them a better margin of winning. Often there are more registered voters than there are residents in a district. Fraud – nah.
2. Should parasites be allowed to vote? Probably not, if only for their own protection because if the tax burden gets too high, there won't be enough workers to support them and since they're unable or unwilling to fend for themselves, they'll all die by the side of the road.
3. Voter fraud by ACORN has been documented in many states. Do a bit of Googling and you'll find them. It's the convictions that have gone missing.
4. SEIU have been caught on tape using violence at Town Hall meetings — charges have been reduced to misdemeanors and convictions have gone missing.
5.. Our Black Attorney General has dropped charged against Black Panthers (caught on video tape) for voter intimidation. Playing the race?? No way — heaven forefend.
Too depressing to continue listing the travesties of this hapless administration destined to be put out of its misery come November.
They only needed "to be made clearer" because tyrants have attempted to deprive the American people "inalienable rights"…maybe that is why the progressives don't want you to believe in a God.
Are you serious? First, it should be "NEITHER the United States Constitution,". Second, "protect a voter from being able to vote in secret" indicates that voting in secret is a bad thing that a voter might accidentally do if not protected from it. The more slowly I read it, the clearer it is how wrong the wording is.
The U.S. Constitution DOES refer to the "right to vote." See amendments 14, 15, 19, 24, 26. Try reading the Constitution, it helps when speaking about it. It really isn't hard to do, it isn't that long.
Actually, I don't get too up in arms about all the "God" in government, but I tend to take it as a more inclusive statement. And "In God We Trust" on money? Hey, fine by me! If you can't trust your God, who CAN your trust? (Tho sometimes this results in people treating money like God…) I have a harder time when people want to put the Ten Commandments up in Government buildings… Those are the specific tenants of a specific faith, and some would even argue based on the wording, a specific denomination of that faith. But I'm fine with acknowledging a faith in a God of your choosing being an important part of who we are and the lives we want to lead.
Un-American…it took progressives a century to allow those who were not "homeowners" to vote…then of course don't let blacks vote. Essentially the purpose of not allowing those with no property of voting was to protect those that do have property…it has nothing to do with patriotic or a moral standpoint just simple stated. Why allow those with nothing to roll the dice for everyone else? We should go back to that premise of voting. Then if LetsGetRational still feels guilty then you can donate your property to someone so they can vote…cause that is what you are doing with everyone's property.
When was the last time "racist decided to try to close the polling place or unjustly knock people of the rolls?" Plus what are you implying that anyone not voting for maobama was a racist for? Also, not all black panthers are poor…just as many racists are not rich–unless they have a position in the democratic party. Have you ever been to the appalachians? Not to mention many many of the "rolls" you mentioned are filled with bs just to get liberals elected anyway. When was the last time you saw Mickey Mouse or Adolf Hitler vote? Obviously 2008 for obama…and they must have the same belief system because they both voted for obama.
WOW… are things really that on the up and up in the rest of the country?
With an outlook like that Rich, I assume you're already covered and get to keep your vote
Does this apply to people who rent by choice as their career or some other lifestyle issue prevents them from owning a home? If you own more than one piece of land should you get more than one vote? What you are attempting to do is to create two classes of citizen in the United States based on an arbitrary standard that those in power get to choose. This is patently un-American, perhaps verging on the very definition of it. It harkens to taxation without representation (and yes, even the poor are taxed, sir, through the sales tax, property tax and other non-payroll based taxes).
Well, if land-ownership were and equal opportunity proposition, I may feel differently. But, due to historic discrimination over the decades against many varied races and heritages (Black, Irish, Polish, German, Asian, Arab, Muslim) land ownership it is not really a measure of the worthiness of a citizens opinion.
And most of us think she is doing a fine job.
There was a case in St. Louis in 2000 of an inner city polling place being closed early and turning voters away. So 2000 I suppose.
No, racism is not a symptom of party, class, or even education. It is a social disease.
DC Court Case Demands That Obama Explain His Eligibility to be POTUS
Learn More Here
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pag...
I am not intimidated easily. If they want to bring billy clubs, they're going to be leaving and walking funny. Holder is going to be run out of town on a rail after being tarred and feathered. Because a blind eye was turned to these b@st@rds and their intimidation in Philly, you watch and see that there are not more of them in November across the country. This is Chicago thug politics and we can thank each and every one of the Democratic voters that voted for this incompetent POS. How's all that Hope n Changey stuff workin' out for y'all? Hmmm? So much for the post racial utopia, huh? Where is all the kumbaya singing? Yeah, I thought so. Let'sGetRational is obviously trying to stir the pot. I'll be saving my energy for November when I exercise my rights to vote his sugar daddies out of their lucrative jobs. Be seeing ya! MuWah!
With your tongue buried that deeply in your cheek, be careful. You may get severe tooth marks in it.
It's an opinion that I also hold, so that makes us a majority and you a loser, Waltz. Cya!
Your messiah has been in bed with the unions from day 1. Stop drinking that koolaid and your eyes will magically open and you will see. That and remove that unicorn horn from your arse, then you'll actually be able to think.
Yeah, ok. And John WIlkes Booth turned himself in for the interviews, right? And you expect us to take you seriously? There is no choir here, so move along.
Only moron I see here is you.
so, are you really saying we should pretty much eliminate the right to vote for almost every college student (who either lives in a dorm, or possibly rents a crappy apartment), as well as most of New York City (don't those high rise apartments get rentals that go on for years?).
that idea is absurd, and there is a very good reason that 'we' changed the Constitution over the years.
Righteous indignation…what fun! You’re really riled up, what’s in it for you? Is sucking off the government teat your career path? The welfare recipients of this country, should just say thanks, get their government cheese, and be on your way. Instead we get lectures from self righteous do-gooders about people who in most cases have inflicted poverty on themselves. Sorry no compassion here. You want to be successful work 60 to 80 hrs a week, as I do, get an education, and you too can become evil, and rich. But that would require more than just complaining about “what’s in it for me,” or get back on the hunt for Barry’s stash, aka “Taxpayer money!”
Since I haven't lived in Chicago in years, and have only
an Aunt and a Cousin living in different neighborhoods
then the one I grew up in, I have no idea if the Precinct Captains
still do that….My neighborhood was filled with people that
had city jobs….(Patronage jobs)…They were told (according
to what their wages were, how much to donate to the Dems.
(I know this because after my Dad had a heart attack, he was
given a city job…) He would get furious about giving money
under duress, but he still did….I would declare myself
Democrat, vote in the primary as a Dem, and vote Republican
in the General election..I would never vote for any Dem except
a good conservative after my Chicago experience…In fact, we
have a Blue Dog Dem as a our representative, and he does
vote the way the people want him to vote….
I'm sorry that didn't amuse you, that's what I live for…
Oh, you amuse me, infinitely!
But seriously, I hope you are never forced to see life from the other side of the ledger. I know it's easy to think poor people are poor because they don't work as hard as you, but it's just not true. Many of your own friends and family can probably relate tales of how ordinary hard-working people can find themselves in a tight financial situation that leads to ruin. It's a lot easier than you think. If you ever do end up in that situation, I hope you see why it's important not to exclude them from having a say about how this country moves forward and fixes our problems.
The folks who are in trouble are not left wing operatives… they are hustlers. Where ACORN went wrong was not having better quality control before these voter registration cards were turned in.
ACORN could not decide which forms got turned in because they are controlled and have to be accounted for… to be fair to ACORN, many of the fraudulent forms were identified to the counties by ACORN.
Can't make a direct connection tho this speific situation – but it certainly looks and smells like the fruit of a Leftie project funded by George Soros; known as the Secretary of State project. They have a simple plan: put fellow travelers in positions of authority allowing them to rig elections. See this AmSpec link:
http://spectator.org/archives/2009/12/04/soros-ey...
http://libertyatstake.blogspot.com/
I notice how you didn't mention the right to vote, but that's ok, I expected a personal attack rather than a reply
I never asked for your compassion, so no need to be sorry. I simply pointed out the fact that your suggestion to strip away anyone's right to vote based on their financial status (or for any reason, really) is terribly unacceptable, and that it proves you are a self righteous (and probably wealthy because of it) narrow minded fool.
I hope some day you get in a car wreck, and the emergency crew that arrives on the scene decides that you inflicted it on yourself, since it was your choice to drive like you do…
Stan, they may be riled up because Obumble wears
it like a badge of honor that his mother was on food
stamps!
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dorf/20001213.html
Thsi is what happens when you let the Dailey'sand the Madigan's run the state, say for years, "they are the experts, let them do whatever", or decide that government is unworthy of your attention. Poeple of Illinois, get off your butts, and take the state back from the thugs in your state at all levels. Thsi is all on you and your responsibility. We the people, can provide moral support, butthis is mainly a local issue. If you run them out of the local offices, you can keep them out of the national ones.
Jeesh. Stop getting infomation from the msm and believing what they say. They didn't try to wiretap or do anything else illegal.
Whack… back at you!
I’ve been broke (I don’t use the word poor, that’s a state of mind), and I don’t have a rich mommy and daddy to pull me out of the fire, either. Since LBJ’s Great Society we’ve locked generations of poor souls into institutional servitude, no end in sight, black and white. There are Sec.8 housing developments in my city where the same people occupy the same dwellings for forty plus years…tragic. This is the classic definition of insanity, “doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result,” oh well!
"Keep in mind that military service is overwhelmingly participated in by the lower socio-economic classes in America. For many without a college nest-egg, it is the only path out of "3 generations of welfare" assistance."
Really?? Please substantiate your claim with facts.
Well then the truly sad part is that you think they are still there by choice.
haha! that IS funny, you managed to make fun of our president AND his mom!
are you gonna try to beat me up and take my lunch money too?
if I am 'riled up' it's not because of any sense of pride or shame, it's because you are actually trying to tell us that we should take away someones right to vote, simply because they are on welfare.
dangerous things happen when you allow things like that to happen, and it's shocking to me that anyone on this otherwise patriotic (?) forum would suggest or support it.
what's next? round up the homeless and burn them?
(no, I'm not homeless, and no I'm not on welfare… I'm just concerned about my country becoming something we fought so hard to defeat)
What great Troll-count today! Soros must've kicked in to hire a bunch more.
Illinois won't be the only place people will have to vote with courage. Thug-trolls at the polls.
That’s cute!
Albeit from 2005, the most recent data I could find using a simple Google search can be found at http://www.heritage.org/research/nationalsecurity... I believe that most reasonable people reading this report would find your claim baseless … not to mention condescending to those of us serving in uniform.
Then why are they there?
glad you liked it
and I am still curious if you have any deeper thoughts on the matter…
does this debate change anyone's opinion?
do you still think that it's acceptable to take away someones constitutional rights, if they are somehow benefiting from the programs we set up to maintain our peaceful society? does any of what I've tried to point out get through to you? do you even care that I tried?
or is this just a place to strut around and throw insults, or vote down every dissenting comment?
I too had trouble finding more recent data than around 2005 but:
"As sustained combat in Iraq makes it harder than ever to fill the ranks of the all-volunteer force, newly released Pentagon demographic data show that the military is leaning heavily for recruits on economically depressed, rural areas where youths' need for jobs may outweigh the risks of going to war."
and
"Many of today's recruits are financially strapped, with nearly half coming from lower-middle-class to poor households, according to new Pentagon data based on Zip codes and census estimates of mean household income. Nearly two-thirds of Army recruits in 2004 came from counties in which median household income is below the U.S. median."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/arti...
Also your link leads to a 404 page, a moved or missing document…
Because they want to be hungry, live in unsafe environments, and miss out on educational opportunities solely to piss you off, Stan.
Thinking, it's not just for breakfast anymore…
Easy.
One of the driving arguments for the Revolution, was 'No Taxation without Representation'. England was taking our money without allowing us to, for instance, have seats in Parliament where the American colonists would be able to participate in deciding how to spend that tax money.
It's a simple corollary that it would be similarly wrong to have representation without taxation — if it is wrong for the government to take a person's money and not be accountable in some way to that person, it is also wrong for a person to take money from the taxpayers and demand anything– for example, political power– in addition.
"How much money does one need to make a year to qualify to vote?"
Irrelevant.
"What level of government assistance should deny you the right to vote?"
1 cent, net. As long as the total amount of taxes you have paid exceeds the amount of assistance you have taken, you should have a right to vote for the people responsible for spending that money.
If you take more than you contribute, then it would be utterly irrational to expect any 'right' to elect the government, since there is no moral basis whatsoever to claim any right to have a say in electing a body that is not funded in any way by you.
Are you ready to get rational yet?
Permanent wards of the state…gotcha!
Completely ready, you're the one dodging the questions
Why is the amount needed to "earn" a vote irrelevant? You're gonna have to peg it somewhere, and I'd like to hear what you think a fair number is.
"As long as the total amount of taxes you have paid exceeds the amount of assistance you have taken"
We still need to define assistance. Is a student loan assistance? Is a tax break for small business owners assistance? How about a huge tax abatement for a wealthy land developer?
"If you take more than you contribute, then it would be utterly irrational to expect any 'right' to elect the government"
What about the richest 1%, many of whom manage to pay a big whopping ZERO in taxes because of clever tax loopholes and off-shore banking? Do we deny them for being burdens on the State?
"there is no moral basis whatsoever to claim any right to have a say in electing a body that is not funded in any way by you. "
First off, there is not a "moral basis" for voting in this country. You can be an evil greedy pig and still vote, and I still would support your right to vote for whatever misguided, misanthropic politcal movements you want. Secondly, please direct me to any section of the constitution that ties tax contribution to voting rights… I'll save you the time and effort… you can't!
Mine, obviously, because I am so smart and elite and I know what is good for you.
Signed: whatever party happens to be in power at the moment
bzzzt wrong answer, you can't back up that old line of crap that I have been hearing for the last 40 years (and I'm sure it has been going around long before that)
Yeah, and I've got some ocean-front property in Arizona to sell ya.
The first "Black Panther" that interferes with my voting rights will be introduced to a pick-up truck and logging chain and catch a ride on "the byrd express"…
Yah, I think it started somewhere around The Inquisition…
My exact problem with legislated morality
gee, lets see… are you trying to say that you were convicted of a felony, and therefore are no longer eligible to vote? (since, really you didn't say much in your post about it, I'm gonna go ahead and fill in your blanks) well, if so, then yes, you qualify for being stripped of the right (as that is in the rules)
or are you no longer allowed to vote because you applied for food stamps?
or are you just randomly throwing stuff at the internet, trying to be smart?
so, using your same argument, is it also "wrong for a person to take money from the taxpayers and demand anything– for example, " the Freedom To Speak? Freedom from Religion? The Right to a Fair Trial? "– in addition. "
if you insist on inserting your own corollary logic, you might as well go all the way!
Just how many of the rights granted by our constitution are you willing to trample in your quest to prove that you are a successful person, while anyone beneath you is void of their citizenship?
Which part don’t you understand sport?
"There is no right to vote. Perhaps this could be used to keep people who receive any kind of welfare from voting? "
heh, yes the book is WAY better than the movie.
Well, I think the overall point being missed is that voting is a RIGHT, not a privilege (sorry felons, sometimes it is). I don't think there should be anything prohibiting a law-abiding citizen from having their voice heard.
That being said, I'd accept this method before using welfare as a disqualifier. As long as the plumber's son and the Senator's son serve in the same capacities, I'd consider such a plan. However I'm skeptical that those with money and influence would end up in Army Infantry over Peace Corps service in the South Pacific.
On that same theme, I'd like to see a draft during any wartime. Just makes us all a bit more rational knowing our fat is in the fire as well.
I am a military member (been in for over 23 years) and my experiences do not support this claim of military being made up from lower income families. It only took me about 15 seconds to find Master Chief's referenced article ( just add /wm922.cfm after national security). It specifically explains how the information that you are referencing was poorly inerpreted by NPP. I would also agree with Master Chief, your tone and attitude is VERY condescending to those of us serving in uniform.
Conservatives Am stupid
Why don't they just ADD an option in each race called "NO SELECTION", so that you can explicitly indicate you intentionally did not choose a candidate in a certain race. I know when I vote if I am not familiar with candidates or judges I just don't randomly pick someone in order to answer the question… it's not like it's a school test and you're guessing the right answer. You should be able to opt out of voting in a race without being critiqued and questioned.
Actually, the Constitution does not contain anything about a right to vote.
Article I Section 4 :The time places and manner of holding election for Senators and Representatives, shall be prescribed in each Stat by the Legislature thereof; but Congress may at any time by Law make or alter such regulations except as to the places of choosing Senators.
(The part about Senators was changed by 17th Amendment)
The individual States or Congress can set the election rules to any damn thing they want. In the time of the Founders voting was restricted to property owners, taxpayers, men, whites, and the literate. Poll taxes and literacy tests were also common long before the Civil War and the coming of Jim Crow.
Congress has amended the Constitution to outlaw denying the vote because of race; but there is nothing guaranteeing the 'right' to vote in the first place.
I would be in favor of restricting the vote to those who actually pay taxes. If you don't pay any taxes or you get a 'refundable' tax credit, you have no skin in the game. You're going to be most interested in keeping that money flowing. Money that first has to be taken from the people who DO pay taxes.
Of course, its been the goal of the Democrat Party to get as many people as possible to get a government check so they can claim that the Republicans are going to take it away. Vote buying using public funds.
So why did I have my right to vote taken away? I was down on my luck and made a bad choice and it was ok for them to take my right to vote away? Strange logic or lack there of.
Sorry., didn't mean to ruin your lunch!
"Why is the amount needed to "earn" a vote irrelevant? You're gonna have to peg it somewhere, and I'd like to hear what you think a fair number is."
I don't think any number is a fair number which is why your question is irrelevant. The amount of money you pay in taxes minus the amount you take personally in government assistance is what I believe to be the reasonable basis for deciding whether you should vote. How much each of those amounts is, is less important than whether their sum is a positive or negative number.
"We still need to define assistance. Is a student loan assistance?" Until it is paid back, yes.
"Is a tax break for small business owners assistance?" Yes, that would absolutely qualify as assistance– if you can agree that if I were to have raided your fridge of two meals last night, and then I raid your fridge of only one meal tonight, then that qualifies as me giving you one meal tonight. Otherwise, no.
"How about a huge tax abatement for a wealthy land developer?" If I steal nothing from your fridge tonight, then I've given you two meals, don't you agree? I'm 'assisting' you by sitting on my ass and not raiding your fridge at all!
But mathematically, paying less in taxes has the same effect on the formula as receiving assistance.
"Secondly, please direct me to any section of the constitution that ties tax contribution to voting rights… "
I thought it was obvious that I'm arguing for an amendment.
You have a very flawed understanding of human rights.
Natural rights are not things you demand, they are things you already have and would have even if the government refused to recognize them, and as such cannot be anything that would require other people to give you anything.
How many of the rights granted by our constitution am I willing to trample? ALL OF THEM.
That is, one: the right to vote, and only to such an extent as to guarantee a measure of protection to our economic freedom by keeping the people who write the laws uninfluenced by the 'moochers and looters'. I'm not talking about disenfranchising a race or even a specific socioeconomic class. I'm talking about disenfranchising those who would only use their power to take advantage of the fact that other people are paying the bills.
It boils down to a matter of economic freedom. You have a right to keep what you make, and to expect something in exchange for giving something up. What you do not have a right to do is expect someone else to give you something for nothing, and unfortunately it would be perfectly reasonable to assume that if you are a negative taxpayer and you vote for a candidate, the sort of candidate you would elect is one who would approve of your behavior and act to support it. That is something America can no longer afford, if it ever really could in the first place.
You are correct. There is no "separation." There is only the denial of the Fed's right to impose or prohibit a particular religion upon the people. Many of the founders were deists and the "god" in government simply stands for natural rights.
Secular Constitutionalist here. One of the primary failings of the conservatives is the argument that some things are right or wrong according to religion rather than natural rights.
I think therefore I am. Since I am, I have the right to exist. My existence conveys other rights such as the the rights to keep living, be free, bear arms, own property, and do what I want as long as those rights do not infringe on the natural rights of others.
Ditch the Fundies and get back to the Constitution and its principles! I am not anti-religion, but an argument that depends on the premise that "Jesus told me so" is asinine and will always be divisive.
No, we lost because non-conservatives were wearing elephant pins. But, please continue to believe what you do and we will see you in the fall then we can have another chat.
You're right – the writer was exposing what the ATTORNEY GENERAL said – it IS a bad thing. That's the reporter's point. That's how messed up the AG is on this subject.
Awesome troll patronage here! You're doing a great job, Andrew! Word is really getting out.
Yes, CR, they are. If I had ever had that sort of thing happen to me, it would have been BIG news here. I've never even heard of it happening. You really do have a big story there. Why don't you guys call Fox News and let them know what you have. That is completely, shockingly unacceptable, and, unless we in Tennessee are the only ones who are allowed to vote the way we're supposed to, I think everyone in the country outside your city/state would be shocked.
As I told Chicago Ralph up there ^, this is a huge story. Give it to Fox News. They have reporters who can check it out. That's what they get paid for. Give them any leads you have (people to call, etc.). I envision James O'Keefe (if he can stay out of jail) voting in Chicago as a Republican this year, complete with a hidden camera, if what y'all are saying is still going on today.
I hope you're right. The thing that truly alarms me is the massive, across-the-board criminality that has been uncovered. Look at it this way: imagine a Republican party that was just unable to keep those pesky Ku Klux Klan members out of seven-tenths or so of their official, government-funded operations. That when some young, brash journalist came in as a KKK member, 7 out of 10 offices had people who were happy to help him avoid any trouble if he wanted to hang young African American men. That is an example that sickens me to even type it; but enslaving 14-yr-old girls as prostitutes is another thing that sickens me. As a matter of fact, those are both stop-the-world circumstances for me.
It's hard for me to believe that this level of corruption has occurred without something in the makeup or philosophy or roots or mindset of the organization involved that causes it to happen.
Bertha Lewis' credibility is not helped by her going after James O'Keefe and Hannah Giles, instead of abjectly apologizing to the American tax payer, thanking the two who uncovered this corruption and resigning immediately so that someone more able to lead a national organization could take over.
Conservatives did not fail in the 2000s because their ideas were misapplied. They failed because they were applied exactly as directed by the Heritage Foundation. They cut taxes to the rich. They refused to regulate financial markets. They let brokerage houses and insurance companies into the banking business. They weakened the Clean Air Act with the "clear skies" initiatives. It was never a matter of if, but when would they fail. It became a race to see when they failed. They tried to run out the clock on the Bush administration, but they missed by eight months and now Bush will be forever linked to the financial meltdown of 2008. So now they try and blame the Democrats, but you have to really be a partisan hack to believe Democrats have always advocated for less regulation.
I'm always ready for that chat…
You are so full of, well, hyperbole… Try to stay focused on the political reality.
This is why it is so difficult to have a political discussion with you people because you actually believe Democrats are the klan or nazis. How do you talk to someone like that?
Your minds seem to be wired for conspiracy and distorts an already sad view of reality.
Words have meanings that we use to enable us to communicate. If we assign random meanings to words then we are no better than other animals who can't communicate.
Progressivism is not a religion. It is a political reform movement that arose out of the industrialization of the 19th century. You could make a case that it is an ideology, but under no definition of the word can it be considered a religion. I consider it more of a spirit of reform than an ideology because not all progressives have been liberal.
You are projecting your emotions onto the word.
There are several county clerks that filed a lawsuit against this bill. Here is link to article in local paper on this issue.
http://www.effinghamdailynews.com/local/local_sto...
There is going to be some huge push-back. I may under-vote in one category just to see election judges actions. Of course according to article our county clerk has already advised judges on how to handle. If Mark Kirk wins Senate primary, come the general, it will definitely bring about another under-vote here!
Honey, read my post. I said what if a REPUBLICAN outfit had Klansmen in its employees. I didn't say ACORN "are the klan or nazis." I said they had employees in 7 out 10 offices who were happy to help people set up a brothel with 14-year-old sex slaves, which I compared to the what-if re: Republicans. If you think what I said about being willing to set up a brothel with 14-year-old sex slaves is hyperbole, then I have no comeback. To me, to take that situation lightly is inhuman.
ok–I live in the "banana republic" of Louisiana and we have to show our dirvers licenses, have our names located on the voters registration book and sign in before we can vote. Also, our voting machines are computerized and have curtains that close when you go in. The voting is by pushbutton and you don't have to vote in every race or tax proposal. Why can't the more "progressive" states do the same? We are at the bottom of most lists for income, education, etc. but our state has a better system than most!
Go Saints–Whodat?
Dimocrits am stupid too! HAAAAHaaa!!
Acorn is just another lowlife radical group that uses the blacks to do its dirty work an everybody knows it.
Honey? Sorry, I'm not looking for a relationship. Perhaps you should try a dating service… this blog is about politics.
Oh, please don't worry – I have no desire for a relationship with you. LOL Although I should apologise for using the word, "Honey," which is, I'm sure you know, a Southern diminutive, and I shouldn't have spoken condescendingly to you. But you didn't answer my post. I'd be interested in your answer. In some posts, you actually sound a bit intelligent. You're avoiding answering what I said, however, and I'm curious what your answer would be. Surely you find enslaving 14-yr-old girls as something worthy of being upset/dramatic about; not something to be taken lightly? What do you think caused 7 out of 10 (or whatever the number was – I actually think it was 7 out of 8 or 9) ACORN offices to have employees who were willing to help people set up brothels for 14-yr-old sex slaves? Do you not think this is alarming?
Honey, read my post. I said what IF (this is a fictitious example, btw, just in case you misread this too) a REPUBLICAN outfit had Klansmen in its employees. I didn't say ACORN "are the klan or nazis." I said they had employees in 7 out 10 offices who were happy to help people set up a brothel with 14-year-old sex slaves, which I compared to the what-if re: Republicans. If you think what I said about being willing to set up a brothel with 14-year-old sex slaves is hyperbole, then I have no comeback. To me, to take that situation lightly is inhuman.
I don’t think that the masses of poor are there because they want to be, or that they should have their voting privilege removed because of financial status. What I do think is that the poor may be poor for any one or more of the following reasons:
Uneducated/unintelligent
Lazy
Financially irresponsible
Take too many risks
Unmotivated/willing to settle for mediocrity
Flawed decision-making
It is for these traits that a person should not be in the decision making process of how to run our nation.
There was reason behind our founding fathers wanted voting limited to the landowners; these were people that were educated and proven to be able to make sound decisions. They warned of the dangers of allowing the voting privilege to be given to the common rabble. This was changed because this was being used for racist filtering. I don’t think that land ownership should be the way to filter people because there are many capable people who rent; however, some process should be used to ensure that voting is limited to those that can properly handle the responsibility. I find it upsetting that some elections have been called into question because of claims of ballot error. If someone is incapable of understanding how to use the ballot then they probably lack the intelligence to make important decisions that impact our nation!
I so hate living in this state sometimes.
It's only scary as hell if the American people just laid down on this. I say,"BRING IT ON"! And bring on the black panthers and SEIU thugs, it's time these thugs got bitchslapped and pummeled. It's time for them to get a tast
of their own crap. It's time to rub their noses in it like the dogs they are. I think true patriots are ready for a brawl.
So bring it on Be-otch.
I would love to see WaPo source material for this article. Seems the data they are looking at is in direct contradiction to that analyzed by the Heritage Foundation, as well as my own experiences over 22 years in the Navy, including 3 years (since 2001) as a recruiter.
Sorry, not my intention at all, and personally, I don't object to giving kids from backgrounds that don't have a lot to offer a chance to build a career through military service. If we go back to the beginning of this discussion, I was defending the patriotism of people on welfare and government assistance, attempting to demonstrate that the data I had seen pointed to people from poorer backgrounds making up a significant portion of the Armed Forces.
Well, I'm not gonna claim the WaPo is a journalistic juggernaut, but I have to start from somewhere looking for info.
Oh, I would agree. I found copious amounts of information regarding recruiting goals being met for the past several years, but absolutely no information regarding the socio-economic status of those recruited other than the Heritage study, and now the WaPo article.
Huh? Triplex, at least try to make a salient point rather than just baiting all my posts across the board
My, how completely un-American of you
You are evil, your the rapist blaming the victim.
Creepy!
superWOW!!!
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