Look Before You Leap on Cain’s 9-9-9 Tax Plan
by Dan MitchellI like the overall approach of Herman Cain’s 9-9-9 tax plan. As I recently wrote, it focuses on lower tax rates, elimination of double taxation, and repeal of corrupt and inefficient loopholes.
But I included a very important caveat. The intermediate stage of his three-step plan would enable politicians to impose both an income tax and a national sales tax. I wrote in my earlier post that I had faith in Herman Cain’s motives, but I was extremely uncomfortable with the idea of letting the crowd in Washington have an extra source of revenue.
After all, Europe’s welfare states began their march to fiscal collapse and economic stagnation after they added a version of a national sales tax on top of their pre-existing income taxes.
But it seems that I was too nice in my analysis of Mr. Cain’s plan. Josh Barro and Bruce Bartlett are both claiming that the business portion of Cain’s 9-9-9 is a value-added tax (VAT) rather than a corporate income tax.
In other words, instead of being a 9 percent flat tax-9 percent sales tax-9 percent corporate tax, Cain’s plan is a 9 percent flat tax-9 percent sales tax-9 percent VAT.
Let’s elaborate. The business portion of Cain’s plan apparently does not allow employers to deduct wages and salaries, which means – for all intents and purposes – that they would levy a 9 percent withholding tax on employee compensation. And that would be in addition to the 9 percent they presumably would withhold for the flat tax portion of Cain’s plan.
Employers use withholding in the current system, of course, but at least taxpayers are given credit for all that withheld tax when filling out their 1040 tax forms. Under Cain’s 9-9-9 plan, however, employees would only get credit for monies withheld for the flat tax.
In other words, there are two income taxes in Cain’s plan – the 9 percent flat tax and the hidden 9 percent income tax that is part of the VAT (this hidden income tax on wages and salaries, by the way, is a defining feature of a VAT).
This doesn’t make Cain’s plan bad from a theoretical perspective. The underlying principles are still sound – low tax rates, no double taxation, and no loopholes.
But if I was uneasy when I thought that the 9-9-9 plan added a sales tax on top of the income tax, then I am super-duper-double-secret-probation uneasy about adding a sales tax and a VAT on top of the income tax.
Here’s my video on the VAT, which will help you realize why this pernicious tax would be a big mistake.
Again, this doesn’t make Cain wrong if we’re grading based on economics or philosophy. My anxiety is a matter of real-world political analysis. I don’t trust politicians with new sources of revenue. Whether we give them big new sources of revenue or small new sources of revenue, they will always figure out ways of pushing up the tax rates so they can waste more money trying to buy votes.
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135 Comments
As always, this issue is within the boundaries of DC.
If we didn't have the problems with politicians, then we wouldn't need a 9-9-9 or a Fair Tax plan.
So, Dan, how do we fix the issue with career politicians and lobbyists?
Well…finally…there are those waking up to 9-9-9! Fortunately…Rep Bachmann nailed it 'tongue in cheek' with her remark on 6-6-6! It was funny…but it was also telling…the devil 'is' in the details!
She was also right that when Congress gets an open door…they never close it…and even widen it!
So thank you to all those waking up to Herman Cain and his simplistic view of what needs to be done…but it is only short term…and what America needs is not only 'short' term…but a 'long' term solution and 9-9-9 is not it!
And let us not forget his stance on NOT aduting the Federal Reserve. It appears he is hiding something here!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGeC44jjOgs
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/8039291/...
Bruce Bartlett was an economic adviser to Bush. How'd that work out? He's also a pal of Paul–who's trying to do what? Oh, beat Cain for the nomination? Huh.
I'll also mention–he's been churning a lot lately trying to hit Cain and Cain's plan. I'm not sold on the whole thing–but an insider like Bartlett working so hard at trying to attack it actually makes me feel better about Cain's plan.
I'd also like to know why the Bigs are spending so much time today attacking Cain.
Like he said last night "The problem with your anlaysis is that it is incorrect."
I don't see any evidence that he intends to impose a VAT or that there is a hidden tax.
Please, lets get rid of the current tax structure already. It's complicated. It's corrupt. It's unfair. It's insane. Let's kill it and start over. At least Cain has the foresight and the balls to realize that and propose real change Bachman, as much as I like some things she says, she's quoting from crazy-crazy land about turning 999 upside down (presumably into 666, how stupid).
You're already trying to take a simple plan and insert deductions. Why should there be deductions? Deductions and loopholes are what phucked up the tax system in the first place. Business pays 9% on their income, no deductions. What is the problem with that?
10% on all goods and services, no write offs, no deductions, no credits and no more refund checks or income reports to the IRS for anyone at the top or the bottom.
The best feature of this plan, no more IRS!
The whole borrow a trillion and repay a trillion built into the return / refund systems is just another impediment to the free flow of commerce.
Disposing of the 15th, 16th, 17th and 26th amendments would also go a very long way toward setting the economic ship on steady course again.
Gallup Poll: US Economic Pessimism Worse Than Year Ago Wednesday, 12 Oct 2011 08:29 AM By Forrest Jones http://www.moneynews.com/StreetTalk/Gallup-Econom...
"The time is near at hand which must determine whether Americans are to be free men or slaves."
George Washington
And, if we're going to be strictly honest–and I'm sure you want to be, right Mitchell?–Bartlett's analsysis doesn't say VAT. Barro says that something Barlett says is "far more similar".
So for you to claim that they "are both claiming that the business portion of Cain’s 9-9-9 is a value-added tax (VAT) " is FALSE.
In other words–a lie.
The rates need to be set in STONE!!! Make it as difficult as adding an Amendment to the Constitution to CHANGE the tax rates HIGHER. A simple majority will work for ANY lowered rates. That is a super majority in the Senate and Congress, as well as 2/3 of the States support. NO other way to RAISE rates. Require that ANY money received by the federal government is classified as a TAX. This would include ANY fees, fines, penalties, charges, etc.
Also, require that the budget for the United States of America may NOT be more than the revenues generated by taxes the previous year, except in time of war.
I don't see a VAT either, but the problem is; what happens down the road with "tax and spends" getting a hold of it and incrementaly raising it to 10-12-16-20%?
Never leave a (D) with an option to tax or spend.
I am a fan of a fair/flat tax and would love to see the IRS get kneecapped.
What happens down the road? Dude, LOOK AT THE CURRENT SYSTEM.
Cain's plan IS exactly what you propose, a fair/flat tax. 9/9/9 FULLY REPLACES the current federal tax structure. Any tax can be raised in the furture. What is your point? This whole analysis of thinking there's some hidden payload here or loophole for future taxation is ridiculous. They raise taxes NOW with the current insane system and it's a lot easier because it's so phucked up! At least this resets the system back to sanity and in practice, probably guts the IRS.
Cain will never get an amendment in stone on this … The system we have now is one hell of a lot better than giving congress another tax to increase.
And even if he gets the percentage in the language, they will just print money like they are doing now.
I say Nein! Nein! Nein! to 9-9-9
It's a stupid gimmick that doesn't address the problem of slashing federal spending and reducing big government.
It should be obvious that the IRS has to get bigger to collect sales taxes from every business in all 57 states. Cut spending drastically and people wont care how they are taxed as long as they are taxed little.
Agreed, The current system is a byzantine nightmare. It's really ridiculous. As long as the rates can be locked in stone, I am all for it. I just know the (D)'s would be up nights trying to figure ways to increase the rates.
One unspoken point about this tax plan, is that while effective personal tax rate becomes 18% (9% personal + 9% sales tax), even though that effective personal rate is higher, the unseen taxes (corporate tax passed on to consumers) will be lower, resulting in reduced prices. At the moment, most of us pay 15% from payroll, plus a little over 30% in corporate taxes that are added to the price of goods and services.
zIf the process of transition can be completed in less than 4 years, and the progressive tax system eliminated in that time, that could minimize exposure to politicians addicted to income tax increases.
Ultimately, whichever way we go, we will likely *always* have politicians trying to add to the tax burden directly or indirectly, whether it be through a single tax or through multiple taxes.
I haven't seen ANYBODY ELSE come up with a plan!!!
I would suggest to the author that he recruit 6 different people and run the numbers and post them on line (current and as proposed under 9-9-9) . If the 'companies' 9% excludes labor cost, how does that compare to the current IRS AND FICA?
Let's run the numbers guys.
Democrats will always try to find a way to raise taxes on us no matter *what* system we're under.
And RINO Republicans will be right there voting with them.
As always, it's up to the people to watch these politicians closely, and hold them accountable at election time.
The time when we could let government run on it's own while we focus on our own lives is long past.
All 57 eh. Does that include non-profits?
Do you really believe prices will be reduced?
That's a serious question. I don't believe it will happen.
57 States is an Obama joke, duh.
I like the plan. It's easily understandable. The only problem that I see is there would need to practically be a constitutional amendment to limit the number and kinds of taxes the federal government could impose.
One thing that I would like to see with a plan like this is no loopholes of any kind. No more exemptions for churches or other charitable organizations.
And I think that basic food should not be taxed at all–produce, meats, flour, rice, etc, by the feds or by the states.
Yes. Companies need to be competitive. If Lee uses its new 14% discount to lower prices, you will be certain that Levis, Wrangler and the rest will join along.
Current real world example: Go to the border of South Carolina and North Carolina. NC has a higher gas tax. The SC station could sell their gas closer to the NC prices or they could use the discount from having less tax to sell it at a lower rate and get the customers who will wait until they cross the border to buy gas.
I'm one of those who waits until I cross the border to buy gas.
I do believe Cain intends to include the super majority requirement and other onerous controls for any increase. One thing about Cain. He is an honest and smart man who surrounds himself with the best minds. He would be a great president.
I have no problem with a national sales tax. People watch as it, and all of it, is taken out of their pockets. A VAT,on the other hand, is in large part invisible to the end user because most of it has already been appropriated as a product is assembled. As long as taxes are invisible, politicians are able to take advantage.
Trying to make thisplan into a VAT is an exercise in pretzel logic worthy of a Steely Dan song.
It seems to follow from Cain's plan that the cost of goods, especially American goods, will come down. Another nifty feature of his plan is that goods are only taxed once – that is, the first time they are sold. It would help a great deal in controlling the amount of tax you pay if, for instance, you buy a used car and pay no tax on it. Second hand goods, etc.
I know. That's why I joked about taxing non profits.
Double effing duh, jackwagon.
If he were honest, why did he lie about wanting to audit the Fed?
Well, as a resident of a state that gets a lot of traffic from border states to buy stuff, especially booze and smokes, I see that point.
I was thinking of how things have gone from a 12 oz container of oatmeal for $3.99 to a 9 oz container of oatmeal for $3.99 though, and finding it hard to believe they'd give away profit. Maybe they'll shock me and do it. We live in hope!
I will gleefully trade the system we have now for Cain's 9-9-9 plan. At least morons like me can understand it.
Lest we forget; goodbye to death taxes and all other forms of raising revenue.
I like the 9-9-9 plan's idea of three separate taxes with lower rates than two big taxes with loopholes and variable rates, but I agree that I would not want Congress to have another source of income, UNLESS it were done by constitutional amendment. That way, they could not raise the rates. At the same time, we would have to have a balanced budget amendment.
All of which is doable, but unlikely.
Still, I like the fact that SOMEONE is talking about a major and fairly radical rethinking of how we collect taxes. It's about time! Thanks, Mr. Cain (or should I just go ahead and call him Vice President Cain?).
Mr. Mitchell doesn't lie. he's hit both parties for years, he's attacked plans that were popular and unpopular. You are making an assumption that appears to be based out of malice about his motives. Lots of subjectivity in your analysis.
This is sophomoric thinking. His first step as president might be an audit of the Fed. Remove the tin foil hat.
I am not crazy about a VAT, but I don't see any way to eventually move from our progressive nightmare tax code to a Fair Tax without some form of baby step.
Despite economists, people just don't support a National sales tax, even if it means paying no income taxes. They're wrong of course, but that's the way it is. Perhaps if the education system wasn't run by Marxists we'd have a shot, but that's the hand we're dealt.
A 100% sales tax plan will die because the Left and the ignorant will accuse it of helping "the rich" and hurting "the poor". People also aren't going to support a 20% income flat tax on everyone for the same reasons.
It's going to take baby steps, and 999 is a good first step.
Herman Cain is a LIAR.
Herman Cain lied about wanting to audit the Fed and you can not trust a liar. A liar will say anything you want to hear and do something different.
Proof right here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzHsLwRYfHs
Ron Paul will tell the truth even if you don't want to hear it, a liar only lies.
Well, that's the reverse effect when increases in taxes and fees cause the cost of creating and shipping goods to go up, but the company knows that the consumer will only pay a certain amount.
".99" has always been a marketing tool that most people don't think about.
"Would you buy this for $4?"
"No, that's too high."
"How about $3?"
"That sounds about right."
"$3.99?"
"Cheaper than $4, so it sounds like a deal."
As I'm reading this, I'm not sure who's right or who's wrong on this triple 9 plan. No matter who wins, has the best ideas, it's not gonna happen overnight. I just hope whoever the GOP nod will not lie to us and do get us back on our feet.
*sigh*
I know. It's hard to remember that time.
It is odd considering that Cain seems to be favored by a majority of the people on here{and other sites}….I admit….I didn't understand why Cain came up with 999 since he has always been a FairTax guy…..until I read {on his site}….That it is only phase 1….phase 2 …is the FairTax…..I would rather he be pushing the FairTax as phase 1 and skip 999…..The left will attack him personally …and the establishment right will attack him with scare tactics about 999….Either way they fear him…….
Under the plan, the Senate would need a 2/3 vote to raise the rates. http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2011/09/27/33012...
Exactly. I hear people complain that the 9% can go higher… so can our current system. But our current system is so off base and favors people who can play the loopholes or corporations that play loophole games. Cain's plan is simple and cuts the cost of the IRS. It's not the end game, but a major step in the right direction. After this, spending needs to be cut to 9% of GDP too!
Well said. This cult of personality over some unknown entity with no voting record like Cain makes me wonder if there is a difference between Republicans and Democrats. So much for the notion that the Dems are more emotional.
How about this… 9-9-9-9…
9% income tax
9% coprorate tax
9% sales tax
9% of GDP spending limit on fed gov!
A step towards more taxation, yes. Cain represents the elite bankers who want that.
Yeah, double taxation is for sissies – we need TRIPLE taxation. Take THAT, Europe!
Still, I like the fact that SOMEONE is talking about a major and fairly radical rethinking of how we collect taxes. It's about time!
Actually, Ron Paul has done that all along and by ELIMINATING taxes, not adding whole new ones!
Lying doesn't prevent someone from being elected tho. (yes, that's sad)
Everytime I have heard Cain asked about auditing the Fed, his answer was that he himself might not call for it, but neither would he stand in the way of Congress asking for the audit.
The first to bitch about the VAT tax here in Canada were those whose purchases indeed meant kicking $50,000 in tax on a single purchase. The first one's with their hand out for the increase in government revenue was BIG UNION. They even beat the politico to it and you'll see exactly the same. It won't benefit you one dime without other reforms such as a big "bugger-off!" to the unions, the politico and every other professional tax leech.
How do you figure? I went and read both articles he linked. I quoted from one of them in fact.
The two people he linked to didn't say what he said they said. How would you explain that?
No taxes will be eliminated but they will sure add new ones. You guys are falling for this hook, line and sinker.
How about this – demand that the plan have an IRREVERSIBLE poison pill in it – if taxes aren't eliminated, then the sales tax goes away. IF his intentions were honest he would have no problem with that.
I like Herman Cain. He's my front-runner.
But surely he understands that he cannot abolish the tax code. All sorts of reluctant congressmen will see to that.
If he served in the White House for eight years and the country continued to vote for conservatives in the House and Senate, he might get to 9-9-9.
Until then, his idea is no more workable than Ron Paul's rants.
If I were him, I'd develop a plan to ease into 9-9-9.
He said he didn't see the need last Dec. It's very possible he's changed his mind, and judging from what he said last night, he has. I believe there are other things he can do other than pushing for an audit. If you want one, it's up to us to push or reps to do it. They won't do it without pressure, and they won't do it because a president wants them to do it.
Problem is, we'll just be in a perpetual war…
Tax = fine on a legal activity
Fine = tax on an illegal activity
Problem with the gov is that they see our taxes as their money to do with as they want… not as our income that they have the responsibility to be thrifty with!
The rates need to be set in STONE!!! Make it as difficult as adding an Amendment to the Constitution to CHANGE the tax rates HIGHER.
The rates are changed by an AGENCY. So what is an agency? Is an agency mentioned in the Constitution? When did agencies start? Those doing yeoman's work in the liberty movement have sought such answers…
Do you have due process with an agency? Hee hee, you guys are so far in the dark you will never find your way back…
I am of the mind that the IRS would shrink. You'd only need three depts. Not the menagerie we have now. Also, Paul hasn't said what his plan is, he hasn't said what, specifically, he will cut. He is ok with pulling out of the middle east and letting Islam spread across the region. Are you seriously saying you'd feel safer with a radical Islam dominated middle east?
Poor phrasing, different interpretation, but not lying. he is not trying to willfully mislead anyone.
It encourages saving, investment, and thriftiness. I haven't seen anything in his plan that becomes a VAT.
Rates are changed by Congress. Hence the "Bush Tax Cuts" were proposed by President Bush and voted on by Congress. Hence the threat of "government shut down" unless Obama would "extend" them. Try again.
So many are conspicuous by their absence here on this thread.
No longer high on Go Cain!?
Yeah, layers of taxation are a real downer, dude…
Well, there is no Amendment proposal, but Cain has said that he won't sign any tax legislation that doesn't include language in which it requires a supermajority to alter the tax rate. As we know, that happens rarely. Santorum was dishonest when he asked the crowd if they wanted a sales tax, without including the fact that other taxes would be eliminated. Secondly, under this plan, tax exempt should still exist, because all the money they pay to their employees would be taxed at 9%, and any new items they purchase will be taxed at 9%. They aren't a business. They perform a service for the needy. I agree about unprepared food. Don't tax it.
Yeah, because his instinct is to deceive. So he says what he thinks will sell.
And I appreciate Mr. Paul's contribution to the discussion. However, he has gotten pretty much nowhere, while Mr. Cain seems to be making a far greater impact. Could be something to do with the fact that Ron Paul is a nut. Just sayin'
Let's kill it and start over.
Only one supporting that is Ron Paul. Only he doesn't support "starting over." If you go back to year 2000-level spending you don't need an Income Tax because the difference between then and now is what the IRS takes in. Cain is happy with high spending, apparently, and wants to add NEW taxes.
Other than Ron Paul…..
Herman Cain's plan is clarifying in that it gives us that Reaganesque simplicity. Simple is not necessarily simplistic.
Quite the contrary, the Cain Plan is "Uber Supply Side Economics". If we really are believers in Supply Side, Liberty (less government), and putting money into the pockets of the productive and Investor Class…this is the plan for the United States.
Cain's plan will free up American Economic Dominance by:
1) No Capital Gains or Dividend Taxes…which frees up people to truly invest in America, which creates wealth and jobs.
2) Flat taxation on income…which allows individuals who have succeeded to be more likely to start new businesses and or, more likely to take discretionary income and invest it in great American companies.
3) Low Corporate Taxes and Death of Loopholes and current Tax Code…… put every American business on a level playing field by having a flat tax and elimination of the Government picking winners and losers.
econus.blogspot.com
Nothing is being replaced – a new tax will be added. Then what?
I have a slight problem with that, Macky. Suppose I own a business and I have expenditures to maintain that business along with employee expenses. Now suppose my company makes $100K gross in a year but, employee salaries amount to say, $75K and I had to spend another $10K on equipment and supplies for the year, is it really fair to hit me with a $9K tax bill when I only end up with $15K myself?
I know this is over simplified but, to not take expenses incurred in the operation of the business into account seems a bit unfair. Not to mention the double taxation that happens when I pay tax on the money I give my employees then they have to pay tax on what they get!
Of course, this model can also be used when discussing the employees taxes. After all, they still have to spend money to be employed, whether it be bus fare to get to work or clothing required for a particular job.
This is truly a complicated matter and, much as I admire Cain, 9-9-9 needs to be massaged a bit.
How's that "summer of recovery" working for ya
Actually, retailers get state sales taxes waived if they plan to resale the item. I would post a link, but I can't find the relevant page on it. But I worked in a retailer and have seen the waivers.
I hear people complain that the 9% can go higher… so can our current system.
Yeah, AND THE CURRENT SYSTEM IS HIGHER THAN 9%!
From the article. In Mr. Mitchell's own words:
"But it seems that I was too nice in my analysis of Mr. Cain’s plan. Josh Barro and Bruce Bartlett are both claiming that the business portion of Cain’s 9-9-9 is a value-added tax (VAT) rather than a corporate income tax."
Now–no where in Barlett's article does he mention a VAT, and Barro says that Bartlett hinted at it and uses that to justify his own excursion.
Now–someone is willfully trying to mislead people, and I think it starts with Barro and continues with Mr. Mitchell.
If some libnut reporter/columnist had written an article like this, we'd be all over him/her for using sloppy reasoning and more.
Mr. Mitchell is also an insider. Member of the H.W. Bush transition team and so forth. They're all threatened by Cain–he's not only off the Democrat Plantation, he's out of the so called main stream of the Republican party, the people who have picked Romney or Christie. They don't react well to people threatening them and their status quo.
I don't understand why you got downvoted so badly. You are right. It doesn't address the problem.
he has gotten pretty much nowhere, while Mr. Cain seems to be making a far greater impact.
Cain has had no impact. Just a lot of hot air.
Ok, that was back in Dec. It seems to me he's changed his mind. If he hadn't changed his mind, you'd be attacking him for that. If you want an audit of the Fed, don't depend on a president to push it. CALL YOUR REPS AND DEMAND IT!
I like the video. But he didn't actually use the word ignorant. Typical politician. If I say you didn't tell the truth then I didn't call you a liar.
It would be no time at all before Congress would raise the 999 Tax Rate. Cain's plan to create a National Sales Tax to further gouge the Tax Payers is a horrendously bad idea.
I just don't see much that I like about Cain.
Cain said that he would pick Romney as his VP. In 2008, Cain endorsed the most liberal person ever to run for the Republican nomination, Mitt Romney. Like Romney, Cain supported the Bank Bailout (TARP). Cain, a Former Fed Chairman in Kansas City, wants to keep the Fed’s Banking Records secret. Last night, Cain praised Alan Greenspan who was Chairman of the Fed when the Banking Crisis was started with loose Mortgage Lending guidelines and the marketing of derivatives of the bad Bank loans.
Like Romney, Cain did not serve in the military during the Vietnam War. Cain has said that States have the right to overrule our 2nd Amendment Right to Bear Arms. Cain was on the Board of Directors of Aquila, an Enron-like Company that bilked its employees out of tens of millions of dollars.
The same as it is for all of US! I find it amazing that these statist will never be honest, but what else should we expect from liars and thieves? The same lying, and stealing. VIVA LA TEA PARTY!
That all may be true. I am a huge Cain fan and my son has an autographed photo with him. That said, Mr. Mitchell's point to never trust the gov';t to stay within it's confines should NOT be over looked, no matter how much you like or dislike his interpretation. I repestc that, quite a bit frankly. I've read mr. Mitchell's articles for the opast two years and he criticized Bush a TON, and rightfully so. Because of this, he's earned the right of the benefit of the doubt. I truly don't think he is willfully lying. Clearly you feel otherwise, but I think his point is, don;t look at 9-9-9 as a panacea when the gov't is involved because it can evolve to something very ugly. I think we canall agree on that, and that is the focus of this article.
Isn't Paul also supposed to be coming out with a plan to cut a trillion dollars from the budget by eliminating entire agencies? People on here talk all the time about wanting just that, so I wonder what will happen if Paul actually proposes such a thing. They'll likely say such a position will "scare the voters" and make him unelectable.
People, you either want real change or you don't.
If Dr. Henry Killinger supports this, you also have the backing of the Alpharius
The solution? Eliminate the IRS.
The means? Several suggested, This one (9-9-9) is grounded in inspiration, solidly thought out model.
Another step in the right direction- forgive the 10's of millions of viable money earners who are currently hiding by not holding legitimate jobs in fear that the system will catch up with them. Give them their lives back man! (of course you're going to have to find them first- and if the IRS hasn't been able to do it for years, it may not be possible…)
Actually, under the 9-9-9 plan, the death tax would be eliminated along with the IRS. No one else is talking about doing that nor do they have a plan I can understand. Romney's plan is 150 pages long. That's too long for me.
Well The President doesn't write tax law. The Congress does. So I don't mind starting with a concept of 9-9-9 & adding any changes that are deemed needed as long as it is FAIR & JUST. At least it is a plan & We The People are actually discussing the issue.
Never trusting the government is something I say here (being the Bigs in toto) every day. Usually I get attacked for it, in fact, because I don't trust Republican or Democrat (I am, btw, a registered Republican).
All I'm saying is that there's a difference between an interpretation and stating something. Mitchell stated something flat out that's wrong. I don't care why he did it; he did it.
No one deserves the benefit of the doubt, not when they're playing on a stage like this. Mitchell has been around enough to know what he's doing. If this were one of the other writers, one of the actual kids we see sometimes–I'd buy that. This guy has been inside DC for too long to make a mistake like this.
IMO.
And I've already said–even in the comment stream for this article–that I'm not a big 999 fan. I am a fan of the truth. Mitchell abused truth.
Yup the left will show us who they fear the most. They are attacking Michele for a reasonable statement. The Devil is in the detail, Yes it is Michele.
BTW, I would vote for either of these two.
Cain/Bachmann 2012
Bachmann/Cain 2012
LANDSLIDE!
Really? Care to show us some pictures of Tea Party members defecating on cars?
The fact you actually said "This cult of personality over some unknown entity with no voting record " is LaUGHABLE! That describes Obamugabe to a tee! He was voted in PURELY on "not Bush" HATRED, moron!
"Obama entered office unorganized and unstructured. Nothing in his background suggested that he knew anything about management, organization, or leadership. Nor did anyone see the need for bringing in talent with these skills. As a result, the Hollywood mannequin was almost immediately exposed as nothing but flair, hype, and hot air. The public had bought a product that did not perform.
Marketing can do many things, but it cannot sell a product that people have tried and rejected. That is Obama's reelection problem http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/10/the_obama_...
I agree with you Eileen. I just don't see much that I like about Cain.
Cain said that he would pick Romney as his VP. In 2008, Cain endorsed the most liberal person ever to run for the Republican nomination, Mitt Romney. Like Romney, Cain supported the Bank Bailout (TARP). Cain, a Former Fed Chairman in Kansas City, wants to keep the Fed’s Banking Records secret. Last night, Cain praised Alan Greenspan who was Chairman of the Fed when the Banking Crisis was started with loose Mortgage Lending guidelines and the marketing of derivatives of the bad Bank loans.
Like Romney, Cain did not serve in the military during the Vietnam War. Cain has said that States have the right to overrule our 2nd Amendment Right to Bear Arms. Cain was on the Board of Directors of Aquila, an Enron-like Company that bilked its employees out of tens of millions of dollars.
No one cares about you Ron Paul supporters.
You need to move the he'll out of My Nation, or pay your tax and STFU.
You are the reason the left gets support by saying Tax the "Rich" And the Rich should pay Tax, because you always want Deductions and Exemptions.
Just another FairTax Redux. Heart be still.
To propose a national sales tax at this time is sheer lunacy.
I don't do populism. Least of all lunatic populism.
Cain's bluster about all the renowned economists involved in formulating his plan was a bald-faced lie.
Nice try wrapping sales/VAT tax up with flat tax. Not going to happen.
Fair Tax requires repealing a constititutional amendment. Not really a small task. — One step at a time he has explained this before.
I was not able to watch the debate.
My question for the group and also for Dan: Where is the discussion or rating on all the others' plans? Seems like Herman is the only one with more than a 'talking point' which can be scored. As we have seen with almost all of Obama's stuff is "You can't score a Talking Point"! So Bachman's 666 and Price of Pizza is a pretty good 'anti-plan'.
Stupid is not being able to see or understand the metaphor!
good post. 999 is not perfect, we do have time to fix it though.
Since when has congress been limited in the way it comes up with new ways to impose taxes? I would be far more comfortable with Cain's plan than I am with the current system.
Clock-the-nut,
You don't even know what 'cult of personality' means. Go back to class.
Right now, Cain is the only one is a plan, something people can actually talk about, argue about. My question is where are all the other plans? Other people are running, but from what and to where?
Dan,
And just how successful do you think any President's tax plan or any other plan would be? Two examples (and the only two) are ZERO's proposed budget that got shot down 97 – 0 (hence the a/k/a ZERO) and his phony Jobs Bill (Stimulus 2) that went down in flames yesterday. Any President's Tax Plan will be well scrutinized, debated to death and modified in order to pass both Houses..
You do know Cain was working for the Navy during the Vietnam War, right? The wanted him to say with them. Also, he said his draft number never came up. Gads, you sound like Lawrence O'Donnell.
Cain wants to keep the Fed's banking records a secret? That's a stretch. Did he say that, or is someone whispering that in your ear?
Also, he WAS NOT A FEDERAL RESERVE CHAIRMAN HE WAS ON THE CIVILIAN BOARD OF DIRECTORS. FOR ONE YEAR
But nice job throwing in *EEK* EVIL ENRON.
Lemme guess, you support Ron Paul?
Whether you describe it as a VAT or not is irrelevant as I see it.
The real problem is that the Cain Plan is a layered tax, that is going to result in double or triple taxation for most people:
Your money is taxed once when you get it
Your money is taxed a second time when you spend it
If you happen to filter your money through a corporation, it is taxed a third time when you use it to pay salaries
It makes for a good sound bite, and it might be a reasonable set up for the single national sales tax with promised rebates, but it does not look particularly superior.
As an alternate, I propose "Plan 9 From Economic Space"
9% Income Tax
No exemptions, no deductions, no more tax free bonds, no nothing, just 9%, right off the top, for everyone.
Eliminate all other taxes.
Public property use fees will be reduced to filing costs, with open bidding for those few limited resource accesses. (Mines, forests, grazing land, bandwidth, and suchlike.)
Bridge and road tolls will be replaced with a single enhanced license registration fee, collected by the government licensing agency.
Port fees will be direct use fees, with a general security surcharge.
There will be a nominal graduated fee based on the size of the corporation, $1 for every 10 expected employees, for registering a corporation. If your company happens to grow just file an update and pay the additional dollars.
When will businesses pay taxes?
When their profits become income for people either through wages or dividends. If they want to sit on a cash reserve forever they can, but I expect their employees and shareholders will eventually want to get paid.
What will the poor do?
Work and not be poor or get charity from people who feel inclined to be charitable, just like now, but with a lot less taxes when they do actually work to not be poor.
Well it's 'hot air' we are all discussing seriously! We are not discussing Romney's or Paul's or Bachman's rosy "Solutions and proposals. They are all taking the standard 'political path of duck cover and redirect.
I suspect Cain's 9-9-9 plan was hammered out one night on a kirchen table. It may or may not be workable. However, the underlying concept of eliminating the 72,000 page tax code and replacing it with something short and easily understood is completely correct.
Please stop your Alinsky-like insults. Insulting people who present facts about Cain is not going to win him any votes. I have done much research on all the top tier candidates. No I am not a Ron Paul supporter. In fact, Paul is one of the 3 that I have eliminated from my list of those I am considering voting for.
Yes I know Cain avoided the Vietnam War by getting a Civilian job in DC and going to Grad School on a government scholarship.
You are very poorly informed about Cain. You should read his bio and watch his youTube videos before you make any more incorrect comments about Cain that are easily proven wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herman_Cain
"Cain became a member of the board of directors of the Federal Reserve Bank of Kansas City in 1992 and served as its chairman from January 1995 to August 1996, when he resigned to become active in national politics"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dhen9QiYai8
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