Rigging the Healthcare Debate with Dishonest Numbers
by Dan MitchellPresident Obama and congressional Democrats are claiming that a giant new entitlement program will reduce red ink. It’s tempting to laugh and dismiss such a preposterous claim. After all, these are the same people who told us that squandering $787 billion on a so-called stimulus would create jobs. Unfortunately, the joke’s on us. According to the “official” scoring estimates on Capitol Hill, Obamacare supposedly will lower the deficit because taxes are being increased more than spending is being increased (not that this should matter since America’s fiscal crisis is spending and deficits are merely a symptom). But these numbers, produced by the Congressional Budget Office and Joint Committee on Taxation, are highly suspect. I’ve explained elsewhere why the spending projections from the CBO are grossly flawed, and many other experts have made similar observations. The same problem exists on the revenue side of the ledger. This video explains why we should be very skeptical of any numbers produced by the Joint Committee on Taxation.
Let’s put this in context by reviewing the supposedly nonpartisan numbers that the JCT has produced. The Senate bill has big tax increases on insurance companies, medical device makers, and so-called cadillac health plans. The House plan, meanwhile, largely relies on higher income tax rates on investors and entrpreneurs. And both bills impose huge marginal tax rate increases on middle class taxpayers thanks to the phase out of subsidies, as explained in gruesome detail by my Cato Institue colleage Michael Cannon.
While we don’t know at this point all of the tax increases that might be part of a reconciliation bill (which House Democrats are demanding in order to modify the Senate bill), the big implicit marginal tax rate increases on the middle class would become law if and when the House approves the Senate bill. These higher tax rates, along with the higher tax rates that are agreed as part of reconciliation, will discourage productive behavior. And as explained in the video above (as well as in Part I and Part II of the Laffer Curve series), this will result in less taxable income. This, of course, means that the JCT revenue estimates are artificially optimistic. Combined with the deeply flawed spending numbers produced by CBO, this means the road to healthcare disaster is paved with fraudulent numbers.
P.S. Some people doubtlessly are wondering why Republicans did not fix the problems at CBO and JCT during the 12 years they controlled Congress. I also wish I knew the answer to that question.
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115 Comments
When anyone in government uses word like "dynamic", "creative financing", "revenue neutral" or "budget neutral" hold on to your wallet!
It is simply an accounting issue.
Figures lie, and liar figure.
The nature of this beast reveals everything… NObama is a sociaIist, therefore spending will INCREASE, taxes will INCREASE, debt will INCREASE and Gov power over us will INCREASE! The ONLY thing that will decrease is our freedom and liberty!
All over the business news this morning,
proponnents of the Bill have pushed on the fact that it would lower health insurance premiums. That is how they tried to sell the public, on the saving it would generate.
That is not true, all experts agree that regardless of the Bill, health insurance premiums will GO UP.
I wish I could run my personal home budget like these guys. But then I'd go to jail pretty quick for FRAUD.
You have to be mentally impaired, or on the government dole (parasite) too believe any numbers that come out of Washington…right or left! Without exception they are always wrong, that’s where you should start, if you’re a producer.
Troll.
I admit I don't know this issue and some of what Mitchell says makes sense, but that's a sad reflection on America. Why are conservatives so bitter that they decide to work less just because they are being asked to help the less fortunate?
[...] » Rigging the Healthcare Debate with Dishonest Numbers – Big Government. Easy AdSenser by Unreal [...]
OOooo…so you think its' better to call us frauds than stupid?
And resorting to personal attacks in your FIRST post! Awesome debate skillz there.
anus,
I never said I was multiple time divorced. EVER.
I have used the phrase "my ex-wives", tounge in cheek.
If you want to start personal attacks, bring it on, dick weed.
Because there is no point in working harder if it is all just going to be taken away?
And if I want to help less fortunate I will. I sure as hell don't want the government to tell me who I'm going to help and how much help I'm going to help them.
Because we are not being asked
We are told with higher TAXES
Flag down, report troll as needed or occasionally required…
Did you get your steaming hot cup of BS and your official White House news releases to start your day anon..?
Yawn…
exactly, Stan. I don't know if you have seen Krauthammer this week, but I've never seen him this pissed. The lying is monumental. The government is the most inefficient user of capital ever known to man. When it comes to cooking the books, they are really poor at hiding it, but when you make the rules, why would they care?
AFFIRMATIVE ACTION does not require passing arithmetic. You get an A for just showing up.
It is not my obligation, nor my responsibility to do what you wrote above. My responsibility is first to myself, then to my immediate family. If there is any excess, it includes my extended family. If there is further excess it is to include my community. People like you, and your ilk, who seem to think it is our civic duty, to take care of you, are misguided, and misinformed. I have worked hard all my life, and taken care of a lot of people, including people in foreign countries. I'll tell you this, and I made up my mind several months ago about this Health Care Hoax; if it passes, I quit. I'm done. I will no longer do anything for anyone. I am laying off my people, and selling what I have. I am fed up with Government interference and meddling in my life. I will no longer put myself through the headaches, or frustrations. I will no longer employee people, whose sole job it is, is to shuffle paperwork to keep the government happy, paperwork that pertains to my other employees.That is what Barrack Hussein Obama has done to me. That camel jockey has just broke this camels back.
Gee, politicians using numbers that are not connected to reality. What else is new?
The use of fictional numbers are just one way to keep people distracted from the bigger questions.
Should the Federal Government be more in charge of medicine and medical care in this country?
Who is responsible for your health care?
Who is responsible for paying for your health care?
Which is more important freedom or equality?
Did anyone expect any honesty from this group in Washington?….
breaking news&.Rep Kucinich turns traitor and will vote yes on the bill!!! Ok Ohio get rid of this moron at your earliest opportunity!!!! Start jamming the lines to his offices today!!!
TRUE Charity is helping someone VOLUNTARILY with YOUR OWN money.
Anything else is robbery.
"….they are being asked to help the LAZY." Fix't that last sentence you. As nutty as Gov. Jesse V was up in MinneSOOOOta – he did have one thing right. If you wanna be helped – you'd BETTER not have cable TV, Cell phones, $200 hair-do's and $300 fancy nails, along with $1,000's of dollars pimped out on a car.
Jed,
I have seen Krauthammer. He is mad.
He sure has a big brain.
Kucinich announced he will vote yea on health care, 2 more is all they need to flip to pass this tripe.
Right on Cowboy! I know several business people that have great ideas, and the means too bring their ideas to fruition , and are going to simply wait out Washington, or at least 11/10. These gentlemen represent hundreds of jobs that will not happen, because of Barry the Bolshevik. Their money is sidelined, and I’m sure this is the case across the USA. In my thirty years in business, I’ve never seen an environment like this…alarming.
Love Krauthammer, always good analysis. They’re gonna care come November, we will remember!
This entire administration need to be brought up on Treason charges!! They have fundamentally BETRAYED the citizens of the United States of America!!!!
I saw it live on FoxNews.. Guess there was more arm twisting on Air Force One on Monday.. Guess the people of America are doomed. The American People don't want this monstrosity of a Health Care Bill. They need to focus on jobs and the economy but Obama already being elected into office still feels the need to campaign. I am so tired of seeing him pushing for this health care that I change my channel. Can't wait to see what he tell Bret tonight in his hour interview.
Yep.
I've made my decision. It is no longer worth the aggravation.
They are at WAR.
With US.
Fuck 'em.
I'm headed to Galt's Gulch.
Nope. Just sharing my own thoughts after carefully weighing the evidence. You ought to try it.
"Which is more important freedom or equality?"
You act as if they are mutually exclusive. They're not.
You need to turn off "Little House on the Prairie". It's giving you false hopes based on a made up scenario.
I do weigh all of the evidence every day and all of the evidence points to treason but in your proggie mind undermining and usurping the constitution equates to "Hype and Che".
You really need to find a new shtick anon, you machinations are tedious at best…
Of course the issue of loss of freedom is at the heart of this, but there are a couple other issues as well that poor foolish "Guy" (sounds almost French doesn't it) doesn't seem to understand. First, the money is spent corruptly and inefficiently. For every dollar that theoretically helps the needy, we spend two for some lazy unionized bureaucrat. 2) "Guy" seems to think individual wealth is all about being fortunate. Well, sometimes that is true, but a lot of these people gladly sit on their asses and take the handout. That behavior is amplified in the wellfare state. It is not progressive, it is oppressive. Please Guy, you and your fellow Labor/socialist /oppressives give your own money to Obama. Come on, 90% cough it up oh compassionate one. Leave ours alone.
No you don't – you REPEAT what you've read that someone else wrote on HuffingPuffingtonPost and DailyKos. In ALL the time you've been posting here, you have NEVER posted anything original. Even your name calling is just repeating yourself again and again.
So tell us, oh great thinker – HOW are they not exclusive?
Go ahead. Can you actually do it without calling anyone names and STILL not telling us?
I have a question for you knee-jerk wingnuts: If Mitchell is right about all this stuff (and I'll admit his presentation seems more reasonable than the average FOX news-type, but that's just style), then why didn't Republicans change the "scoring" rules when they were in charge?
(sound of crickets chirping)
Kucinich was never on your side you moron. His objections were the bill didn't go far enough.
However, that is wonderful wonderful news. Another nail in the GOP's coffin. Good show, Dennis.
And why is it always something sexual with you guys? You just can't get away from the ramming down the throat or sticking something up a different orifice.
Seriously, what's with that? Do you have some fantasies you'd like to share?
Kucinich is a stupid little attention whore.
Obama: "Dennis, let's go for a ride on Air Force One and talk health care. The press will be there."
Then the little man holds a press conference to announce his decision.
Vomit.
You need to calibrate your weights from time to time there anon.
You seem to be not with it ,…."95%",….. of the time.
Kucinich scammed the scammers like Nelson and Landreau, and the unions did. Hold out for a big payoff and like clockwork: CHA CHING!
I am so freaken pissed about this thing, that if it passes, the next Progressive Puke that gets into my face, will need some serious healthcare.
And yet – you seem to FORGET (how convenient huh??) that we FIRED the Republican's for ACTING like Democrats in 2006.
That's right – the Republican's didn't do what we elected them to do and FIX the fiasco, they went right along with the smoke and mirrors and shell game and we voted them out. GASP!!!!
And yet WHO started calling the Tea Party people that sexually explicit term first? Hmmmmmm??
There was no arm twisting involved there anon1,…….what Obama did was,….
give Kucinich a sneak preview of Phase II and Phase III,……. (total government health care control)
Hence Kucinich's Public Option demand becomes a mute point.
"And yet WHO started calling the Tea Party people that sexually explicit term first?"
Griff Jenkins, Fox News. I heard it with my own ears.
DID YOU REALLY EXPECT HONESTY FROM A DEMOCRAT?
A Democrat has an extramarital affair (Clinton), cheats on his taxes (Rangle), accepts bribes (Murtha RIP), sells a Senate seat (Jackson), backs sex-trafficking (Cleaver), lives with a pimp (Frank), and on and on and on… They have no morals, there is no God, praise homosexuals, be politically correct, kill your baby, tax global warming, embrace illegals, bigger government is the answer to everything. The most corrupt Democrat is the most exalted. Nobody bats an eye, WHY? BECAUSE HE IS A DEMOCRAT AND IT IS EXPECTED OF HIM!
YOU LIBERAL DEMOCRAT VOTERS ARE THE STUPIDEST MORONS EVER!
You will be hard pressed to find better information on ObamaCare. Dr. Milton Wolf is a 2nd cousin to Barack Obama and a practicing physician. He is proud of his family relationship but critical of ObamaCare. An unusual combination.
Dr. Milton Wolf
http://usataxpayer.org/?0048842540
Motor City -> Obama City
http://usataxpayer.org/?0069181813
They have no clue as to the storm to come down on their heads if they do this thing and screw the constitution!
Listen you wothless POS! If this crap passes, I will hunt your pathetic ass down and we'll have a little end of life counceling. And that freaking heart of yours? I'll show it to you, A-hole!
Determining the cost of this Obamacare is an exercise in silliness since,….
we do not know the actual amount and level of health care that is in store for us if this clown,…… gets to "TRANFORM" our country.
Make being unhealthy (as defined by ????) a crime and watch health care costs go down.
Can I watch?
If they pass this using the Slaughter rule, they will finally put an end to the myth of representative government. If our ballots become wortlesss, then we'll try the other option, and I've got plenty of them.
I have worked in healthcare IT for almost 20 years. This reminds me of the "Administrative Simplification" that was one of the main selling points of the Health Insurance Portability and Accountabilty Act (HIPAA) which is a demon spawn of the Clinton administration (gee, thanks Hillary…).
From my perspective HIPAA has done nothing more than create a rediculous amount of red tape related to health care information privacy and security but has not really produced benefits that are anywhere close to the cost of compliance. There has been literally hundred of millions of dollars spent on HIPAA compliance since 1996 for about $12.57 worth of benefit. "Administrative Simplification" my ass….
The mis-direction with Obamacare is no different. This bill has nothing to do with health care and everything to do with control of the poeple. The only good thing that could possibly come from the passage of this bill is to hasten the coming revolution.
Politics has turned into diplomacy, and diplomacy is nothing more that saying "nice puppy" to the rabid Rottweiler while you search for a stick.
Lay siege to Washington DC!
THIS TYRANNY MUST END!
I'll let you hold my jacket, while I rip off his little twig arm and bitch slap him with his own limp hand.
Typical insecure redneck, resorting to violence because you can't deal with logic.
Kind of like the logic of "deeming" a bill passed that NEVER GOT VOTED ON……….
What's a "producer"? Is that someone who lives in China?
Why are liberals/progressives so freakin' entitled that they would decide to live off of the people who actually get up and go to work every day while they sit around thinking of ways to describe how awful our country is?
THAT is the sad reflection!!!
DISHONEST??? hmmm, sounds like the WHOLE LEXICON of the PROGRESSIVE movement….
Um, Garrett is under the assumption that this site is just a wing of the Republican party. Welcome to the new media, where partisan means US vs. progressives/liberals. We're not Republicans. We're not Democrats. We're Americans. If the Republican candidate seems the most honest and closest to our values, we vote them in. If they aren't, we vote them out. Same with Democrats. We aren't beholden to a party, only to freedom.
Um…, Cowboy, you're actually making the case for a public option. This is why we need to get private companies out of the picture.
Guy – you must be kidding. Not only is that an incredible loss of freedom, but the money gets mostly wasted on corrupt SEIU bureaucrats. Not only that, but you discount everybody without healthcare as "less fornunate." Too many are all to happy to sit on their backsides and take the handout. Oppressive labor socialist party groupthink promotes a wellfare state.
Here is an email that I received recently that whether true or not I am sure people can relate. This is from a doctor to the O-shit-factor.
Dear Mr. President:
During my shift in the Emergency Room last night, I had the pleasure of evaluating a patient whose smile revealed an expensive shiny gold tooth, whose body was adorned with a wide assortment of elaborate and costly tattoos, who wore a very expensive brand of tennis shoes and who chatted on a new cellular telephone equipped with a popular R&B ringtone.
While glancing over her patient chart, I happened to notice that her payer status was listed as "Medicaid"! During my examination of her, the patient informed me that she smokes more than one costly pack of cigarettes every day and somehow still has money to buy pretzels and beer.
And, you and our Congress expect me to pay for this woman's health care? I contend that our nation's "health care crisis" is not the result of a shortage of quality hospitals, doctors or nurses. Rather, it is the result of a "crisis of culture", a culture in which it is perfectly acceptable to spend money on luxuries and vices while refusing to take care of one's self or, heaven forbid, purchase health insurance. It is a culture based in the irresponsible credo that "I can do whatever I want to because someone else will always take care of me".
Once you fix this "culture crisis" that rewards irresponsibility and dependency, you'll be amazed at how quickly our nation's health care difficulties will disappear.
Respectfully,
STARNER JONES, MD
No wonder people in more progressive nations pity us. All this anger is troubling, especially since it is motivated by a desire to prevent poor people from getting health care.
“
TinkerbellObamacare is going to die because not enough people believe in fairies. But if all of you clap your hands real hard to show that you do believe in fairies, maybesheit won’t die.”CLAP!
Harder ! ! !
Logic? You pathetic Progressive parasites wouldn't know logic if it bit you on your skinny ass. We're done trying to reason with you brain dead stoners.
Is this all you can do anon? Hide behind the name and berate people with personal attacks. Ever wonder why you continually get a negative rating on post after post? Probably not.
No.
On the contrary. I am simply referring to what was on the business news this morning.
I am not making the case for it, the facts speak for themselves.
Anyone with a scintilla of sense knows that the Health care Hoax will NOT contain costs, or keep premiums down. On the contrary, it is going to be like the Wild, Wild West. There will be no controls in place, no mechanisms for oversight. It will be a fiasco.
It will be a Federally Mandated, Government License to steal.
All bets will be off………….
Hey, jerk wad.
I'll bring the logic, Deuse will bring the whoop azz.
They are too tired to get up and go get a job, or go to work in the morning. Too busy watching Jon Stewart, donchaknow?
Are you delusional? Anyone in this country – INCLUDING people her ILLEGALLY – can get health care RIGHT NOW TODAY. YOU want ME to pay for YOUR health care – THAT'S the problem!
We are pissed, because they are trying to pass a bill WITHOUT VOTING ON IT – and what's IN that bill is even worse.
Bullshit! Our anger is motivated a bill that has NOTHING to do with healthcare, but why am i trying to reason with a Media Matters troll? Go back to Soros and tell him that we're coming for him. He'll never live to see the Constitution destroyed.
What we need to do is cut off the head of the snake. Soros needs to be dealt with, and soon.
That too but we must get MILLIONS to go to DC right now!
We cannot afford to wait until after the so called "vote" or for the capitol police to issue a "permit" to exercise our rights and we must act before we lose all of them!
If you live anywhere near DC or know anyone that does, PLEASE GO and encourage as many of your friends and family to join you there!
The clock is about to run out on the constitution and this is the 2:00 minute warning!
I don't think the poll numbers are gonna change anymore. Just less than half of the country wants a free ride, or so they think. Slightly more than half the country wants nothing to do with this. The ones that haven't made up their minds are lying and will go for the free ride or we have a lot more mental diseases than we know of.
If I was within five hundred miles, I'd be there right now. I was at saturday's rally in St. Paul, and I will attend every demonstration that I can get to. To be honest, I feel this is all falling on deaf ears and they'll do whatever it takes to pass this thing.
Here's a compromise that gives both sides something. We should adopt a value-added tax.
Conservatives admit that the VAT does not do as much damage as income taxes, so it should not be a big problem for Mitchell's Laffer Curve concerns.
That way, we can both fund health care AND also have some money to reduce the deficit.
Unless I'm mistaken, that's a win-win from all of our perspectives?
We know that they are deaf but we need to hold out hope that they aren't completely blind as well…
If you know ANYBODY that can get there call them asap..
We must make a stand.
Hey Cowboy, there's other ways to have ex-wifes than being divorced!
Some of this is lost, because anon's original post was deleted. He just started getting personal,and derogatory.
I am single, but have always used the line (tounge in cheek) when meeting a pretty gal; "ah, my future ex-wife.
Evidently, anon thought he could take liberties with me, and get personal. That won't work.
We are getting under his skin, he is getting desperate.
HOPEY CHANGEY!!!!!!!! YAAAAYYYYY IM PETER PAN!
They've pulled down their blinds and turned up the radio. We need the ground to shake underneath them. Until they're actually in fear for their lives, they will ignore us like some parent that thinks we're to stupid to know it's for our own good.
I've got a question for you Media Matters trolls. How long can you go without sleep. We're going to turn over every flat rock 'til we find you.
What about no Nationalized Healthcare do you not get? NO! HELL NO!
If you know anybody with big drums have them bring those along too!
The "vote" will likely be on Sunday and we need to be more than just angry or loud now, we need to be downright militant! about stopping this SHI*!
Call everyone you know within earshot of DC and tell them to go to there by Saturday we must fight!
Garret you you don't have the mental 'tools' to match wits here with many of our 'wingnuts' , go back to the Soros ghetto where you belong, after you figure out what I said…
Increasing "equality" – meaning equal results, not equal standing under the law – decreases freedom because controls need to be set in place to force equal results.
Freedom results in inequality of results. That is ok – it is even Just (so long as equal standing under the law is upheld – which forcing equal results actual destroys).
Yup, given that Kook now will vote for it, we can be fairly confident that it is even worse than is being shown in this bill.
Have we ever been able to get rid of an entitlement? I can't think of a single entitlement program that has even been scaled back in American history (or at least the last 100yrs since we started providing all these entitlements)
Why is it that Republicans are so dogmatic and unwilling to compromise?
Don't complain about the results if you're not willing to be part of the process!
Hey Spence,
Republicans were not invited to the party.
Republican or Dem the real problem is the Progressive agenda. It goes back to the Bismarkian welfare state, Hegel's political philosophy and the German model of education. Something the US bought hook line and sinker eventually resulting in our first fascist President – Woodrow Wilson. Here is how it works. Man is to be perfected via government and "rational administration". Government is to be controlled by a bureaucratic class created by the universities. These elites rule in an oligarchy attending to the needs of the subjects. This is the end state for Progressives (modern liberals).
Wilson is on record as basically hating the preamble to the Declaration. For him, liberty is relative to the historical context and rights cannot be "inalienable" nor can they result from just being an American citizen, they have to be bestowed upon you by the government.
I have another question for the progressives here, why do you think you have a right to the labor and products of other citizens? Also why are you so enamored with spending other peoples money?
I would like to watch. That's just the way I roll.
Attack's keep coming from the MSM from all sides. So, I suggest all women who are Democrats, please take a good look at who is in your party. This is why there is such an uprising around our country. I am a conservative, and would never attack somebody the way these thugs do.
http://www.eyeblast.tv/public/checker.aspx?v=Xd…..
Compromise….. Is part of the reason we have come to the edge of this cliff. Handing out FREE medical services to any and all who show up at a hospital's doorstep was a huge part of what has made the cost of health care go through the ceiling. There are multiple ways I already pay for medical services for the poor and needy…. Through my not at all volunteer property taxes, and through my own personal Medical Ins. premium's. Giving not just the poor and needy but also the lazy and non-citizenry, "Affordable Housing, Utilities, Food, Education, Health Care including (Eye-Teeth-Medical(Physicians/Hospitalization)" How is it possible, that for all the years we’ve been doling all our hard earned, then confiscated money out to all these Government Run programs we essentially STILL.. have not done enough yet? Unbelievable.
Instead of a VAT, what about a flat tax. Have it at 11.5 to 12 %, eliminate all other taxes except for sin taxes. Then say maybe, just maybe, cut all the wastefull spending. Cut unneeded programs and organizations (long list to cut from there).
Then let the free market, not gov't control healthcare and gov't should have limited say so in what can be done. Then the gov't should sell back all the companies and banks they currently own, and loosen restrictions upon businesses big and small. After that, disban all unneed unions (SEIU, UAW, and others). Lastly, and it should be the first, everyone in a high gov't position (senators, house members, pres and so on) must read and memorize the Constitution and hold up to it or else get IMPEACHED if failing to do so.
That'll never fly. It makes too much sense.
Hahahhahaha
Busted – outright LIE.
I agree completely. I have already closed my business and layed off 10 employees. Small business yes but I cannot take it anymore. I could see all this coming and I figured it was not worth it. TIME TO RETIRE!!!!
To a Democrat compromise means capitulation. If will not capitulate you are not compromising.
Unfortunately, most Obamacare supporters are either too dependent on government or too ignorant to know dishonest numbers from honest ones. Just the way Obie likes it.
Article 1 Section 7. of the Constitution.
All bills for raising revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with amendments as on other Bills.
Every bill which shall have passed the House of Representatives and the Senate, shall, before it become a law, be presented to the President of the United States; if he approve he shall sign it, but if not he shall return it, with his objections to that House in which it shall have originated, who shall enter the objections at large on their journal, and proceed to reconsider it. If after such reconsideration two thirds of that House shall agree to pass the bill, it shall be sent, together with the objections, to the other House, by which it shall likewise be reconsidered, and if approved by two thirds of that House, it shall become a law. But in all such cases the votes of both Houses shall be determined by yeas and nays, and the names of the persons voting for and against the bill shall be entered on the journal of each House respectively. If any bill shall not be returned by the President within ten days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the same shall be a law, in like manner as if he had signed it, unless the Congress by their adjournment prevent its return, in which case it shall not be a law.
Every order, resolution, or vote to which the concurrence of the Senate and House of Representatives may be necessary (except on a question of adjournment) shall be presented to the President of the United States; and before the same shall take effect, shall be approved by him, or being disapproved by him, shall be repassed by two thirds of the Senate and House of Representatives, according to the rules and limitations prescribed in the case of a bill.
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