The U.S. Economy Needs Fewer Public School Jobs, Not More
by Andrew J. CoulsonTeachers unions, the Obama administration, and most Democrats in Congress want to spend another $23 billion that we don’t have to shore up public school employment. If we don’t go along, they tell us, it’ll be a “catastrophe” for American education. With fewer teachers our kids will supposedly learn less, further crippling our already wounded economy.
They couldn’t be more wrong.
Over the past forty years, public school employment has risen 10 times faster than enrollment (see chart). There are only 9 percent more students today, but nearly twice as many public school employees. To prove that rolling back this relentless hiring spree by a few years would hurt student achievement, you’d have to show that all those new employees raised achievement in the first place. That would be hard to do… because it never happened.

Student achievement at the end of high school has been flat for as long as we’ve been keeping track—all the way back to 1970. But we did get something in return for all that hiring: a great, big, fat, BILL.
If you graduated from high school in 1980, your entire k-12 education cost your fellow taxpayers about $75,000, in 2009 dollars. But the graduating class of 2009 had roughly twice that amount lavished on their public school careers. The extra $75,000 we’re now spending has done wonders for public school employee union membership, dues revenue, and political clout. It’s done a whole lotta nothin’ for student learning (see chart).

But, some readers may ask: were all those new employees teachers? About two thirds of public school employment growth has been teachers (41 percent) or teachers’ aides (23 percent). The remaining third was comprised almost entirely of support staff in schools and district offices.
So, yes, a bit of public schooling’s employment bloat can be put down to a swelling bureaucracy. But given that adding a couple of million new instructional jobs did nothing to improve achievement at the end of high school, there’s no reason to expect that shedding a few hundred thousand of them would hurt it.
Ed. sec. Arne Duncan and friends are thus mistaken if they really expect a negative academic or economic impact from reversing some of our costly and ineffectual public school employment growth. In fact, they actually have it backwards.
In the private sector, jobs are created and retained only if they are believed to add value to the enterprise—if their salary and benefit costs are outweighed by the revenue they generate. By contrast, we know that the millions of new government school positions added over the past four decades have not added measurably to student knowledge or skills at the end of high school. So instead of boosting the U.S. economy, these jobs have actually been a drain on it. Returning to the staff-to-student ratio we had in 1980 would save taxpayers about $142 billion every year.
Losing a job is a terrible experience, but the school hiring binge of the past four decades has been entirely disconnected from enrollment levels and unaccompanied by educational improvement. Foolish public officials and self-serving, empire building teachers’ unions have created millions of unproductive jobs that were never justified in the first place and that have been a terrible drain on the U.S. economy. With the nation $13 trillion in debt and many state governments looking at red ink for years to come, we just can’t afford to perpetuate their mistake any longer.
Throwing billions more at the system would only worsen the problem and delay the solution, which is to help ease the transition of these workers from their current unproductive employment back into the productive sector of the economy.






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Kick the union thugs out of the "public schools" and off of the "public dole" stop paying idiots and political shills to indoctrinate your children and ruin their chances for a successful life free of government intrusion.
It is time to put a PERMANENT END to the Indoctrination Warehouse Complex in America and rescue the kids from the progressive plantation of institutional slavery to government!!!
In our city, there are 17 administrative employees for each student. They've been throwing billions of dollars at the public schools and they aren't getting any better.
I love how NJ Governor Chris Christie called the Teachers' Union's bluff:
Teachers' Union: "You can't cut education!!! Think of the children you Nazi!!!!!"
Christie: "Ok, all funding for the kiddies stays as long as the Teachers' Union agrees to forgo their raise this year"
Teachers' Union: "Chris Christie is Satan!!! Pray for his death!!!!"
Wish I could vote for a gov like that here in NY this year, but I don't think Lazio has what it takes, but hey, if he starts talking like Christie, Lazio's got himself a vote.
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NEA and SEIU — the two largest public unions — are plundering America.
Don't forget "public employee" pension plans which are by far the largest expenditure of every state's budget!
Cut the cord America!
Clearly, student/teacher ratios are not as important to education as they Unions would like us to believe. Maybe someone should suggest that they actually try, you know, teaching rather than social egineering?
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Same where I live…and yet this is how truly dumb teachers are…they never question that aspect of the education system. The district where I live has 11 schools in it. That same district has 9 superintendents, and 9 assistant superintendents. Stunning!
Everyone should study Daniels up close in Indiana, and see what he has done. I certainly think Christie has!
"Throwing billions more at the system would only worsen the problem and delay the solution, which is to help ease the transition of these workers from their current unproductive employment back into the productive sector of the economy."
If the axiom, "Those who can't do; teach." is to be believed, I fail to see how they would ever be productively reabsorbed into the private sector. It is much more likely that they would simply gravitate to another union environment where they would continue to be a drain on society in a different field of endeavor. Until we get control over the union problem, I'm afraid this situation is not going to be satisfactorily resolved.
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We spend more and more in Education and it gets worse and worse…Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results….The teachers unions suck hind teat….America are you tired of the left yet?
The teachers stopped caring about education a long time ago…when they realized that they can keep their jobs no matter what!
The best way to fix this problem is to provide parents with the money for educating their children and letting them choose which school they want. Inferior schools go bankrupt and superior schools will grow.
If this is done along with the conversion of all publics schools to charter schools the cost of education will plummet and the quality of teaching will improve.
It is too bad that Coulson did not do productivity comparisons of teachers (something like "students educated per dollar") with other professions. I would bet that teaching is the only profession whose productivity has declined over the years. Engineers produce more designs per dollar, auto workers produce more cars per dollar Heck, even hamburger flippers flip more hamburgers per dollar. Only teaching can show such a hideous decline in productivity.
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there was a old teamster joke, but i suppose i can insert teachers.
how many teachers does it take to change a light bulb?
seven, you got a problem with that. the problem is we need vouchers, so parents can take control of their child education, we don't need more teachers.
When I started school way back in the stone age (1967) we had a class of 30, in my small town, at the end of the year all 30 could read and do basic math. To contrast; when my nephew started school in '97 there was a class of 16, at the end of the school year only half could read at second grade level, and they were just learning subtraction.
First, Eliminate two thirds of school administrations. Then eliminate or drastically reduce the union stranglehold.Teach just the basics and do away with courses that divide us as Americans. We are Americans FIRST and our culture SECOND. I as a young man never was taught such devisive BS. My friends and I never even thought of our cultural differences. Not until the 70's and the birth of the RACE PIMPS did I even think about race. Now, all schools care about is seperating and classifying students, giving ribbons and diplomas to failing students for fear of damaging or hurting thier feelings and collecting that 35.00 a day per student for attendance. Teachers get a TON of time off and I'm tired of listening about how hard they work. I'm sure there are good teachers out there. If we can just free them of the La Cosa Nostra(Unions) and let the good teachers shine then we will see progress.Not until then.
[...] Read more from the original source: » The U.S. Economy Needs Fewer Public School Jobs, Not More – Big … [...]
Ya know, you all could keep your kids out of "big government" public schools and state universities and keep them home and perhaps home school them. That way they'll never pose a threat or get in the way of intelligent people. Imagine how effective a tea-tard is when they believe in evolution and Jesus riding dinosaurs while collecting their state checks they whine about people getting. Most of them are mental welfare recipients anyways and can't spell most of their protest signs they make so…eradicate yourselves through your own stupidity and allegiance to the elites and save all us smart folk a lot of headaches having to listen to you welfare hypocrites whining about YOUR entitlement programs and your continuous complaining about "big government" programs and spending that politicians YOU elect are responsible for.
Your children are making life difficult for our intelligent children. You kids will probably end up protesting on tax payer funded public land complaining about entitlement programs they're using and whining about on tax-payer funded public land. Keep your kids out of our kids way and we won't end up like stimulus funded Texas.
Day Cares centers,…
Head Start centers,………
Counseling centers,…….
Afro studies this,….Latino studies that centers,……..
educating millions of illegals,………..
more days off and holidays than 100 Greek government workers,……..
Looking at those graphs,……..I think we have done a commendable job holding the line,……..
on the cost of education,………..
maybe next semester we can even allocate some funding for,……
R,…R,.. and,…. R.
The chart stacking up cost and student performance is shocking, even if you start from the assumption that more money doesn't equal better education. But then, the NEA and their enablers won't let a lack of money get in the way of increased spending, so why should facts have any impact?
All the more reason to root for Governor Christie in his fight with the unions in New Jersey!
This is a spectacular demonstration of the art of a run-on sentence, coming from a troll criticizing the intelligence of others.
Syntax,
Home schooled kids CONSISTENTLY far out perform public schooled kids. http://www.hslda.org/docs/study/ray2009/2009_Ray_...
Your idiot libtard kids will be the welfare slobs, not mine. Their education is western guilt, gender studies, multicultural BS will make them perfect for the welfare line.
I've seen sewage processing plants less full of sh!t than you are.
Til they apply for college. My libtard kids hire your kids pal. Joe the plumber cleans the sh#t out of my kid's plugged toilet for a few dollars and then gets celebrated for doing it by you. The guy with my kid's sh#t on his hands is your hero.
THE SOLUTION:
VOUCHERS + TAX CREDITS = COMPETITION. Only good things will follow.
All unions fear competition. From autos, to steel, to furniture, to truck drivers, to farm workers, to tires, to government, to textiles, to education. They all fear competition because unions are not designed to compete, they are designed to plunder at the expense of the final consumer and industry that employs them. Just look at what has happened to EVERY American industry with entrenched unions.
U.A.W. = U Ain't Workin'
If you, sir, are any indication of the intelligence of YOUR children; I'd be surprised if they can even use a toilet by themselves…let alone do the requisite paperwork.
I'll give you a hint: Your lack of faith in a Divine Creator is the root cause of your ignorance AND your unhappiness. I know how you liberals love to get something for nothing, so I'm not even going to charge you for that one!
The big problem is that school systems are bureaucracies, the jobs being created are not teaching jobs, but administrative positions.
I love how all these Godless Communists tell me how stupid I am for my belief in God and point to science as having all the answers. Look at those science performance levels in the chart!
Let's review: Maybe if you idiots actually knew what you were talking about, I might even consider listening to what you have to say!
Well Syntax…I will keep my kid out of ur public school…no problem….Oh one thing….I take my tax money with me you leech
Oh but it's for the CHILDren! Every time I hear that line I want to put another liberal on the barbie.
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[...] » The U.S. Economy Needs Fewer Public School Jobs, Not More – Big … [...]
I think I have more experience here than you.
I have been in public, private, and parochial schools. I have degrees from Ivy League schools and state schools. I have been employed by Ivy League schools, state schools, and community colleges.
The most waste I have ever seen is at schools run by the government (private schools and parochial schools have little waste). In gov't run schools, every time there is a "hiring freeze," the number of teachers decreases and the number of administrators increases.
BTW, teaching is not my profession.
If they were really concerned about the children, they wouldn't be piling up debt for our children's great-great grandchildren to pay.
There are groups of professional trolls whose job is to draw fire and sap the energy of people on blogs. They try to focus the blog away from the basic issue (in this case the enormous cost and meager results of public education) to other issues like evolution and religion. This fires up the blog readers and serves only to distract them from the subject at hand.
We're better off sticking to the subject and ignoring provocateurs like Syntax_game_II
Amen shipmate.
I'd love to get my tax dollars back to fund my home school.
DM, my friend. You are arguing in favor of critical independent thought against someone who is incapable of understanding the concept, like most Libthinkers.
Keep it up though. It impresses the rest of us. And everytime Syntax swears or calls you a name, consider it a point for you.
"Mental AIDS"? Really? Man, I though you libs were the tolerant ones, the ones with the burden of a heavy heart that cared for all?
But from that comment I can see that you are like all the others…….intolerant. You do know "syn" that home schooled kids are the winners 98% of the time in the National Spelling Bee, and outperform over 90% of Public School children? You have a truly scewed look at things my friend.
Do you have a problem with people protesting on public land as afforded by the 1st Ammendment? Be careful what you wish for, you may get what you want. Someday you may just be stopped for protesting YOUR views on public land. It can go both ways. THAT is what too much government can do for you.
cont.
You also speak of us having an allegence with the elite? Really? You do know that a large majority of the wealthy in this county are Liberal/Progressives. That goes for your politicians also. 8 out of the top 10 richest members of Congress are Democrats. That's why I always laugh when those of you on the Left, including politicians, speak out about the evil rich that don't pay taxes. Have you seen all the rich people in the President's cabinet that have either "forgotten" to pay their taxes or whatever excuse they are using today?
Your rhetoric is tiring and so out of date. But leave it to a compasionate Liberal to call any child of America stupid.
Or we could simply send them to good private schools with quality, non-union teachers.
"All us smart folk"- the self-delusion of liberal twerps is indefatigable. If liberals are so smart, then why do they advocate so many stupid things?
Dream on. The "liberal vote" comprises mostly illiterate welfare deadbeats, union goons, kleptocratic politicians, and a thin crust of silver-spoon Socialists and snotty academics who confuse education with intelligence and can't hack it in the real world.
And yet , in defiance of all the evidence, liberals (that's a diagnosable mental pathology, by the way) somehow delude themselves that they are the "smart" ones. HAH! There are only two kinds of liberal: stupid, and evil. Which one are you?
Adding staff obviously didn't help the big picture, though some kids somewhere may have benefited from less-crowded classrooms. This period of time (last 40 years, most of my life) has seen a major change in the teaching methods used in the classrooms. My late '90s teacher training program emphasized children "learning by doing", then learning by inquiry (http://bit.ly/bxw3Ak). Most kids definitely learn by doing (a few need to think things through first, and I allow that). However, I am the expert in my classroom, and if I allow the kids to decide what they need to learn and how they need to learn it, learning is less likely. Can we do occasional "inquiry" activities? Sure: the science fair is perfect for that, and there are other ways to build inquiry skills. I firmly believe, though, that kids are kids because they need adults to lead, guide and direct them. Parents do it (or should), and so should teachers. The good teachers do that, anyway.
If they gave met the money to spend on my sons education I would put it in a school I could watch like a hawk. I would be engaged in the process and follow the books. The money they spend on my son for his education is better used in private schools.
One of the biggest trends is the "group learning". I call it the clueless leading the clueless, yet many districts are mandating that at least 90% of the school day should be group activities. It frustrates the good students who can learn the material or finish the work quickly and, if they are isolated into groups, their group is bored while waiting for the rest. Those who are unmotivated can sit and let the rest learn or hold back the group. Those who are incapable are frustrated too.
Wow. I'm glad to live in a school district where the leadership knows who's boss: the taxpayers. My district has 50 schools (5 are charter, a new one opens in 2011) and ONE superintendent. Last year we voted a mill increase to plug a budget shortfall only on condition that it was used to avert teacher layoffs in a growing district. This year the district's budget has again been cut, so they laid off some administrators/support staff at the district offices.
Has the achievement stayed level or has it really dropped? Resetting the baseline for the SAT scores doesn't give me much confidence that the achievement level has stayed the same. And the mathematical illiteracy–mostly from laziness–of both our schoolchildren and their teachers doesn't reflect well on our educational system.
It is interesting to see how well immigrants from countries with a much more demanding (and less-expensive) educational system–Russia and India come to mind–in our colleges. Our home-grown students don't do so well and tend to avoid the more difficult quantitative fields (my state university is now graduating more art students than anything else).
Clearly we have not been getting our money's worth for our children. As others have said before, vouchers and charters combined with the utter destruction of the NEA would dramatically improve education int the USA.
OK,…OK,….. we'll get out your deadbeat kid's way,……
but,…….you still,….want,….our tax money,……no,….???,…..yes,…..?????
Shhhhhh,….don't tell him,.there David,……
let him keep thinking this stuff,……..
I know,…… I wouldn't want my kids any where near his snots.
I've been writing a good deal about this issue. When you have a problem with your kid's school, there's really no point in going and causing a fuss. At the end of the day, that union contract is all that stands. I would that that withg the high unemployment rate and the abundance of college-educated persons, we as a country could use this summer to research homeschooling, coschooling and other educational alternative to remove our kids from the indoctrination camps of public schools. Do it. Do it this summer. Don't wait until November to tell these leftists what for, you can begin now. Can you imagine the bottom line of this graph dropping even further. The system won't reform itself, only if we force it to. Trying to reform it from the inside will never work.
Don't let your babies grow up to be ignorant moocher – homeschool now. Friends don't let friends go to government school.
That's a flying leap of logic. There are people in every kind of work who are conscientious workers, and some who are lazy bums. Note that the comic strip "Dilbert" was based on the author's experiences in the private sector.
Anyone who thinks teaching is easy has not done it.
Bwahahahaha! Good one!
Guys, don't feed the troll. Let him eat his young instead.
I can confirm that. Every single homeschooled kid I've ever taught in my college courses has been MILES ahead of his/her public school colleagues. No exceptions. It's pretty amazing.
Whatever.
My kid is in a public school, and thus far we've had few complaints. Her academic performance is beyond her grade level; she enjoys her school and has a lot of friends. Shortfalls in the curriculum have been corrected at home. Also, there are enough local choices available that we don't feel the need to homeschool her. And frankly, I'd be lousy at it, even though I'm a teacher myself. Homeschooling is not for everyone!
What, no rebuttal to your monolithic belief that all public school teachers are lazy do-nothings and all public sector employees are Superman?
Lots of teachers, but not all teachers. Most of the teachers who don't care leave within the first 5 years anyway.
Reason,
Typically I agree and even advise the same.
I just tend to get my dander up over this issue of Home Schooling.
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Sorry. I guess you'll have to go find someone else to argue with. This one is self explanatory. There is no point in pursuing it further.
In CA, there was a big push over the past decade or so to reduce classroom sizes. I haven't seen any study where that has resulted in better test scores. I suppose it increased union jobs, which probably was the real agenda for those pushing the measure.
Maybe we should simply go back to previous classroom sizes, and let go of the extra staff.
Whatever.
Small class sizes are effective in K-3; after that, there's not much difference.
I would encourage you to read "The Underground History of Education" by John Taylor Gatto. It is well documented and illustrates how our current system is a fairly recent invention and is not designed for acedemic greatness, but to produce the most docile citizen possible.
The main thing to remember about homeschooling, is that it is not about the facts and subject, but I will tell you this:
It is about the journey.
It is about instilling character and building a stronger family.
It's about friends you get to keep and your best friend always gets to sit beside you at your coop classes. (We don't have assigned seats.)
It's about getting rid of the busy work and moving forward with your interests.
It's about looking at popular culture and rolling your eyes.
It's about looking at a bully square in the eyes and saying, you have no hold over me.
It's about experiencing the world together.
For the Christian, it's about growing in God's Word together, and that has been the biggest impact in my life.
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[...] » Tһе U.S. Economy Needs Fewer Public School Jobs, Nοt More – Bіɡ… [...]
How much money do you think our country and each of us would save if we did away with the public school system altogether? The money we save could easily be used for home schooling, tutors or private schooling. You write a good article, but you overlooked the obvious.
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Err…well. Noone is talking about getting rid of ALL teachers. The founders believed in public education, most notably religeon (school's preference), politics, and America herself. De Tocqueville (sp?) was amazed at how knowledgeable American citizens were about their own country and politics. With that being said, I don't think the founders would be particularly pleased at WHO is being hired into public schools. There is TONS of deadweight in public schools, and alot of teachers just don't give a crap about the students anymore; these are the people we need to get rid of.. It's all union rules and union preference. It's disgusting and it has to stop. The kids really ARE suffering in this instance.
On an off note, AFL-CIO is in Texas unionizing our nurses. They are pushing something called Nurse-patient ratios. Kinda like this student-teacher ratios. What it means, as far as I can tell, is these hospitals are going to need to hire many many more nurses and staff, all at higher wages and benefits. Coupled with Obamacare, I'm almost scared to go to a hospital. Maybe I'll pick up a copy of "Self-Surgery for Dummies"…
You got that right Missy!!! Great article Andrew!! But I am afraid to say that the teachers and the libs will miss the point entirely,,,,you are using FACTS.
Simple Solutions:
Vouchers to allow parents to vote with their feet,,,,and
Disbanding public employee unions,,,especially the teachers unions.
Something Christie in NJ just demonstrated,,,the solution is and can be simpler than many of us think. Just freezing the entitllements at present levels, freezing the growth of the bureaucracies,,,attrition will take care of it almost as well as some draconian measure we all would like to see.
Private Sector unions are palatable,,,public employee unions are insane and unsustainable.
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There is something like that already being tossed around, called School Choice Vouchers. It works like you described. The parent/s get a voucher, they take the voucher to their school of choice, and the child is enrolled in said school. Quick, clean, and easy. Repubs are for it, dems are against it. Actually, the School Choice Voucher program in D.C. was rescinded recently by Obama and Co.
How many progs does it take to change a lightbulb?
None. A conservative has to buy the bulb first.
Being from AZ I find it rediculously funny that the LA teachers union wants to start a class to teach their students ow 'un-american' the AZ immigration law is.
Normally I would be concerned about a threat like that but in their case,,,with a 50% drop-out rate,,,they are not teaching anything anyway and this would be just one more thing that the students would not understand anyway.
So to all those twisted little minds in the LA Schools system,,,keep up the great work,,,those students you are failing to educate will be making decisions on how you will be cared for in your golden years.
KARMA is a b!tch!!!!
Hey twerp! Remember me? Ready to get schooled again in how to back up arguments? You gave up last time…maybe you should just give up now before it starts again. By the way, people here dont like intolerant racist homophobes here, so why don't you go back to Huff Po. Unless you want to argue intelligently with facts….
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Not ALL TEACHERS belong to unions and many, many do work very hard and love their kids too. There are many good teachers where I live, many who do an excellent job. I live in a good area.
Your trolling is rather weak.
Time to resurrect the Hot Babes for Lame Trolls category. In this one, some NSFW lovely ladies from the orient.
I have always felt the day they allowed teachers to unionize is the day the standards
went down, and with each passing year they went lower and lower…
"A Day in the Life of Joe Middle-Class Republican"
Joe gets up at 6:00am to prepare his morning coffee. He fills his pot full of good clean drinking water because some liberal fought for minimum water quality standards. He takes his daily medication with his first swallow of coffee. His medications are safe to take because some liberal fought to insure their safety and work as advertised.
All but $10.00 of his medications are paid for by his employers medical plan because some liberal union workers fought their employers for paid medical insurance, now Joe gets it too. He prepares his morning breakfast, bacon and eggs this day. Joe’s bacon is safe to eat because some liberal fought for laws to regulate the meat packing industry.
Joe takes his morning shower reaching for his shampoo; His bottle is properly labeled with every ingredient and the amount of its contents because some liberal fought for his right to know what he was putting on his body and how much it contained. Joe dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air he breathes is clean because some tree hugging liberal fought for laws to stop industries from polluting our air. He walks to the subway station for his government subsidized ride to work; it saves him considerable money in parking and transportation fees. You see, some liberal fought for affordable public transportation, which gives everyone the opportunity to be a contributor.
Joe begins his work day; he has a good job with excellent pay, medicals benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation because some liberal union members fought and died for these working standards. Joe’s employer pays these standards because Joe’s employer doesn’t want his employees to call the union. If Joe is hurt on the job or becomes unemployed he’ll get a worker compensation or unemployment check because some liberal didn’t think he should loose his home because of his temporary misfortune.
Its noon time, Joe needs to make a Bank Deposit so he can pay some bills. Joe’s deposit is federally insured by the FDIC because some liberal wanted to protect Joe’s money from unscrupulous bankers who ruined the banking system before the depression.
Joe has to pay his Fannie Mae underwritten Mortgage and his below market federal student loan because some stupid liberal decided that Joe and the government would be better off if he was educated and earned more money over his life-time.
Joe is home from work, he plans to visit his father this evening at his farm home in the country. He gets in his car for the drive to dads; his car is among the safest in the world because some liberal fought for car safety standards. He arrives at his boyhood home. He was the third generation to live in the house financed by Farmers Home Administration because bankers didn’t want to make rural loans. The house didn’t have electric until some big government liberal stuck his nose where it didn’t belong and demanded rural electrification. (Those rural Republican’s would still be sitting in the dark)
He is happy to see his dad who is now retired. His dad lives on Social Security and his union pension because some liberal made sure he could take care of himself so Joe wouldn’t have to. After his visit with dad he gets back in his car for the ride home.
He turns on a radio talk show, the host’s keeps saying that liberals are bad and conservatives are good. (He doesn’t tell Joe that his beloved Republicans have fought against every protection and benefit Joe enjoys throughout his day) Joe agrees, "We don’t need those big government liberals ruining our lives; after all, I’m a self made man who believes everyone should take care of themselves, just like I have".
I admire that very much and appreciate the homeschooled kids I teach in college. But like most professions, being a teacher and teaching one's own kids is a difficult paradox. Same goes for doctoring, lawyering, or being business partners w/your kids.
Our current system is about creating a docile herd; but that didn't seem to be the case earlier in public schools' history. Basic skills and citizenship were the primary goals, and I believe we should return to that.
You, my barista friend, are a progressive fascist!
As you kick and scream, we will be busy making life for your children better, despite your efforts to the contrary.
We will save them…from you.
It did however result in more teachers = more dues-paying union members- which was the real purpose of the exercise in the first place.
What a load of hooey. Especially the horseshit claim that Joe's pay and benefits somehow are to be credited to the villainous extortion rackets called "labor unions."
Where should I start fisking this (re-posted) dreck? Maybe the fact that it's the insurance industry, not "liberals", who are responsible for auto safety, and for reasons of … wait for it… profit? Point out the laughably oxymoronic "His dad lives on Social Security and his union pension because some liberal made sure he could take care of himself ?"
Nah, you're a lost cause.
But how about an on-topic posting, hmm, hockeypuck? An attempt to defend American public education, which manages to be sumultaneously the worst and the most expensive in the developed world?
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Andrew…
Thanks for putting in black and white what most of us here have suspected for years…
This Public- mega school bureaucracy is something that needs to be scaled back and defunded…
Vouchers need to be implemented, in order break the back of the Union leeches..
Vouchers will give rise to values-based private schools, sort of like "home schooling" on a massive scale…
It's really the only way to begin the US reclamation process..
Only after the Marxist based schools are marginalized, can we be a great country again…
The Feds should NOT be involved in education period. Public schools were funded for locally and controlled by the parents during the Founding of America. I think education should begin at home myself.
Abolish all unions and the National Education Association.
Well said repmother. This is my 8th year home schooling my children and I love it!
It's fun to watch the light bulb of understanding go on in their little noggins. I get to experience watching my child learn to read. How awesome is that! I love to take little rabbit trails in every subject when some type of current event is going on. For example, the goings on in Israel right now is a good way to teach my crew about God's love and protection for Israel and also the world's hatred of Israel and why that is.
Eliminate the Dept. of Education, get rid of public employee unions. While our kids are floundering in public schools, due to lack of qualified teachers, the teachers are guaranteed a job, regardless of their qualifications, or whatever crimes they commit. The paychecks just keep coming. This is the time for America to act, after all these years of being dictated by the unions. Can't wait till November.
[...] » Tһе U.S. Economy Needs Fewer Public School Jobs, Nοt More – Bіɡ… [...]
The topic is "public schools"…Not this regurgitated drivil you've posted…
Besides, alot of Repubs went along with many of the "great" features you've listed..
We love clean water and air, too…!!
Dig, fool?
This is why for years I have been calling for the abolishment of the National Department of Education, Pres. Carter's payoff to the NEA for their support. It is nothing but a tool to undermine state and local school districts, bring in more money for the unions and indoctrinate America's youth. Call your Congressmen and Congresswomen. Find out where they stand on the National Dept. of Education. Ask that they stop funding this bureaucratic sink hole.
True. If you find old pictures (late 1800s, early 1900s) it is amazing how many students (of various grades) one teacher was expected to educate. Amen to the idea that one suggest the current educators actually try teaching rather than social engineering and perhaps they could teach fact, not their biased personal opinions. I know there are some excellent teachers still in the schools but I also know firsthand that there are plenty that are indoctrinating, not teaching.
[...] » The U.S. Economy Needs Fewer Public School Jobs, Not More – Big … [...]
[...] » The U.S. Economy Needs Fewer Public School Jobs, Not More – Big … [...]
More power to ya!
All day long Joe worries about the future of his children because some stupid "Liberal" decided to spend two generations of as-yet un-produced wealth on foolish schemes free people in a market based economy would never support. Joe is up in arms over the fact that so much of his property (earnings) are confiscated by the committee-of-535 who are so much more wise when it comes to the proper "redistribution" of his wealth than he, the one who produced it, and decide how to best "allocate" it. Joe is despondent because morons such as yourself have the right to vote.
Clean water exists because people demand it. Sure, the "government" had to step in because some aspects of geography/geology are "common property". That is where your crap post here begins to depart from the rails of sanity.
Most "government" action is reactive, not pro-active. The 8 hour work day? Preceded union pressure in most industries due to competitive nature of attracting and preserving the best workforce possible.
Safe medications? Seriously? Most prescriptions have little better of a track record than their placebo in any study. The vast majority of prescriptions have so much fine print regarding the damage they may do to the user that I refuse them in nearly every case. How many drugs warn of use if there are pre-existing problems with "liver or kidney function"? Do you know the purpose of your liver and kidneys serve for your body? The stamp of big government is only an assurance that someone has been properly paid off.
Health insurance? Because of unions? You can't be that DUMB! (Well, maybe… based on this post of yours). Employer provided health insurance (really medical insurance, since no one can "insure" health) was a response to government wage and price controls in the 1950's (meant to control inflation, and failed miserably).
"below market" student loans? Does your dumb ass even begin to understand that "below market" means it is subsidized? Might you ask at whose expense? If it is "below market" does that not mean it is distorting the natural market for that particular commodity (even if it is "education")? Have we just devalued the meaningful achievement of those who EARNED a right to be in the "market" for an education?
The new union thug retires in his 50's and collects a pension that dwarfs the earned income of the schlub taxpayer that will work past retirement age to support the "servant" of the people. I know a few of these assholes, and I despise all of them.
I will group most of the rest of the crap you attribute big government "greatness" to under the banner of "consumerism". Monopolies, bad products and risky schemes don't survive long without government sanction and the presence of free markets. Businesses that produce inferior products, or ones that charge too much are subject to competition in a free market. No monopoly exists without government sanction.
Private "mass" transportation' was a viable business prior to the "good intentions" of government subsidies of "public" transportation.
I will leave you at that. PLEASE keep posting such "wisdom". I will catch you another day and totally expose you for the moron you are. Your philosophy is both arrogant and anti-human. You are too stupid to understand this. I will school you at a later date. Later, numb-nuts…
Exception not the rule, unfortunately!
And the Department of Education (Federal)
[...] here: » The U.S. Economy Needs Fewer Public School Jobs, Not More – Big … Posted in School | Tags: are-only, but-nearly, employment-has, forty-years, past, [...]
[...] » The U.S. Economy Needs Fewer Public School Jobs, Not More – Big … [...]
[...] » The U.S. Economy Needs Fewer Public School Jobs, Not More – Big … [...]
[...] » The U.S. Economy Needs Fewer Public School Jobs, Not More – Big … [...]
Dear macnvettes,
I noticed that too! The data charts used in Mr. Coulson's article show 2/3 of the new hires as teachers & teachers aides, however, it doesn't break down costs: Administrative workers are actually paid far more than teachers aides, and often more than teachers!
Also, many school employees classified as ' teachers ' spend little time teaching students. They develop curricula, organize activities or do training. At least some of the people in Mr. Coulsons data classified as teachers are probably doing administrative work.
Kindest Regards,
John Lepant Brighton CO
GF,
It is Sunday so I hope you don't mind if I say "I loved your sermon today" sir.
Tell it like it is GF!
Great Post!
I called it "Institutionalized mediocrity".
The smarter kids teach the slower kids just so they can move forward as a "group" and the coasters just keep on coasting. Everyone gets a "B".
It is the stupidest thing ever.
Every parent wants the best for their kid, Public School just wants to process them and get a predictable outcome.
Look up on Google "8th grade graduation test from 1895"
Then find anyone who can pass it.
[...] » The U.S. Economy Needs Fewer Public School Jobs, Not More – Big … [...]
Yeah, good luck with that… We're doomed…
I would agree: don't go and cause a "fuss." However, I do recommend that you at least try to talk with your child's teacher(s). Rational, well-thought-out questions, plans and ideas can be received with a smile and might even get a rational, well-thought-out response in return. Start in the classroom, then work up to coordinators, administrators, and then perhaps the district level if needed, always prepared and focused to the task.
Some families have only one choice for schooling: the public school down the street (or down the bus route). Those families deserve good educations, too, and deserve to have their voices heard. There are plenty of good teachers: I've worked with some of them. One good teacher can make a world of difference; if the only change you can make in your child's education is to get your child in that good teacher's class for a year–and encourage that teacher all year long as he/she "fights the good fight"–you will have accomplished something for which you can be proud and thankful. Then next year, you can begin the process anew.
I worked at a school and I can tell you that you can't voice your concerns on the waste, incompetence (can't spell or add), unprofessionalism, and teachers just not showing up for work and getting paid for it. There were a few of us in the financial and administrative support roles that got fired! It was fine that the principal ran personal errands all day while being still a little "tipsy" or hungover every day. Teachers would leave their elementary school classroom 's to other teachers while going to the high school to teach golf and getting paid for both! They concentrate on teaching the more gifted children because it is easier. The students that struggle a little more and need the extra help are just kicked to the curb.
I couldn't believe how much information and how many seminars were held constantly on preparation for retirement! There was definately more time spent on that than teaching for many of them.
HATS OFF TO ALL THE WONDERFUL TEACHERS THAT TRUELY ARE COMMITTED TO TEACHING CHILDREN!!!!
We need to focus on the quality of teachers, not the quantity. In other words, the opposite of the union position. By eliminating the bad teachers, good teachers could be paid more, attracting more high-quality teacher candidates. The old free market model. Again, the opposite of the union model. Former Secretary of Education, Bill Bennett, believes that the quality of teacher is much more important than the number of teachers per student. It makes sense.
When I was in college to become a teacher, a poll of teachers said their number one complaint was "lack of parental involvement." Number 2? "Parental involvement." We have had to let a few teachers know that we are responsible for our daughter's education. The teacher is paid by us (private or public school) to accomplish our goal. He or she works for us.
[...] » The U.S. Economy Needs Fewer Public School Jobs, Not More – Big Government [...]
[...] » Tһе U.S. Economy Needs Fewer Public School Jobs, Nοt More – Bіɡ… [...]
let's keep the faith a little longer there fair maiden
"Actually, the School Choice Voucher program in D.C. was rescinded recently by Obama and Co. "
Yes, which shows that it's not about improving education, it's all about more power over education. The DC program was both productive and cost effective unlike Headstart which is neither.
The Federal Govt isn't susposed to be in the Public School business at all. It's State Issue acdg to our Constitutions.
We have a middle school in Racine, WI, just South of Milw., that has about l4 academic course, and 21 choices for Sports.
For Constitutional Issues and Answers, I go to: http://www.constitutionparty.org Surf around for "Party Platform" There's 40 issues listed by category, and the Constitutional Answer.
I am not a member of this group, and not promoting it…however, it's available and quite usefull.
Colleges like Liberty and Patrick Henry (which shouldn't be accredited in the first place) are recruiting homeschoolers. That's not exactly a compliment to their supposed superior intelligence.
Hold on tight to your little fantasy world there CP7768…
May God bless you this day, hopefully with a clue. Clearly you are lacking one.
[...] » Tһе U.S. Nation Needs Fewer Public School Jobs, Nοt More – Hυɡе … [...]
Why doesn't any of these clowns who bumwrap homeschooling,……..
ask why is it that they feel homeschooling is necessary in lieu of "traditional schooling.
I sure wish you would define……. "superior intelligence"
or maybe the content of what is being taught not an issue with you.
Unions in New Jersey are already attacking Gov. Christy via TV ads.
This is where "More money for EDUCATION" goes. Next will be even smaller class sizes; Unions will want 1 teacher for every 5 students.
Plundering is an Understatement !
// "Tell it like it is GF! " //
I've noticed that too. His posts are like troll repellent.
I salute you and all the other fellow vets on this D-Day anniversary, don't imagine we'll see many disparaging remarks from the progs. on the subject, unlike August 6th.
Are you suggesting we use the "FREE MARKET" system where good schools flourish and bad schools fail ?
In 1950 we had a class of 53 and dedicated Franciscan Nuns in First thru Eigth grade. We all could read, write and do math along with moral teaching. Nearly all became sucessful. Public School teachers were earning $7,000 per year (less than garbage men) and were exceptional teachers as thier Public Schools were academically VERY HIGHLY RATED, similar to a Prep School today. What went wrong ? UNIONS………..
DM,
Glad you enjoyed it. I would have had a better chance of being coherent if the author had been so at the time of it's composition.
I am never offended by religious references unless it is some ass telling me that I am going to hell if I don't believe exactly as he does.
I will always call it the way I see it, and if I can discipline my thinking more I will try to drive all of the trolls away. They got nothing. Their philosophy (such that they understand the concept) is what I called it when I said "arrogant and anti-human".
Almost to 100! Let me give you a push… +1
Thank you for the compliment, and thank you for your service. Army, wasn't it?
GF,
Yup, Military (Army) Intelligence (oxymoron, I know) at Field Station Berlin during the Carter administration. Fought using a radio receiver instead of a rifle.
The single largest growing area for teachers is ESL, English as a 2nd Language! If we simply denied illegal aliens education, most of these teachers would be out of work. Another thing is that in Arizona (and it should be nationally), they are testing English teachers' ability to speak and write English (you know, like they do for math and science teachers), and there is outrage in AZ about this! Imagine actually having to be competent at your profession to keep your job! (sarc)
…….and you see, I do not know about other areas of the country, only my small spot in the big picture.
Ooh! A graph! Some lines go up and others don't! It's like Al Gore's global warming graph, except that one was a lie and this one isn't! Right? But what about the percent change in total number of students since 1970? The overall population has gone up, I'm sure the number of school-aged children has as well. Any lines on the graph showing the difference between the cost of a blackboard and the cost of a computer (adjusted for inflation, of course)? How about making a nice visual aid which depicts the overall change in variety and complexity of subject matter in the last 40 years? Could the issue possibly be more complicated than simply bad teachers and their evil unions run amok?
[...] from: The U.S. Economy Needs Fewer Public School Jobs, Not More , Posted By Andrew J. Coulson on June 5, [...]
Just because homeschoolers are being recruited doesn't make them any better off than students who attend public/private school. I guarantee you that public/private school students are being recruited just as heavily as homeschoolers if not more. Furthermore, I'd like to see what percentage of students at the top 50 colleges/universities of this nation come from a homeschooling background versus a private/public school background.
Every proponent of homeschooling always speaks of how homeschoolers are grade levels above their cohorts (i.e. superior intelligence).
Just because they win 98% of the National Spelling Bees does not entitle them to consider themselves superior to private/public schools students. That just means they can spend 8 hours a day learning how to spell obscure words instead of doing legitimate school work.
Hear! Hear!
The Truth Hurts….
But Homeschoolers do MUCH worse on Multicultuarlism, Political correctness, gender studies, and other empty headed crap that passes for Curriculm at Public School.
Whatever…
1st Amendment says you can believe whatever you wish. As long as it is working for you, it is fine with me.
Have a nice day.
Come now CP, you really can't be that…..well I guess you can. You do know that home schooled students outperform public/private school students on SATs anywhere from 15%-30%? Many studies have been done on this. In fact, many home schooled student are reluctant to tell testers they are home schooled due to the stigma attached to it by people like you. So the numbers could actually be higher. Many of these students go on to college with fantastic scholarships due to their incredible SAT scores. But hey, they aren't learning anything but obscure words are they. Maybe you ought to do a little research yourself before spouting off.
I guess I'll look that up for you seeing that you are simply too lazy to do it yourself.
[...] » The U.S. Economy Needs Fewer Public School Jobs, Not More – Big … [...]
Then why are conservatives so opposed to the raise in taxes on the wealthy if the wealthy are in fact a "large majority of the wealthy?"
Di_Da,
August 6th?
I thank you for your very important service to the free world in Berlin.
I'm an intel geek too. I was ELINT in the USN, and S2 shop in the National Guard…
You know Floridians actually passed an amendment a few years back requiring schools to limit class sizes… How would one suggest doing so… hiring more teachers???
Ralph,
They don't care.
It is all about control.The Progressives all went into "Public Education" to raise up their blind army of drones who only regurgitate what they are taught, and cannot think for themselves.
The trolls who come here are perfect examples of this thinking.
[...] » The U.S. Economy Needs Fewer Public School Jobs, Not More – Big … [...]
the average salary here for these postions is 220,000 per year to boot and that is without the benefits rolled in.
Dear macnvettes,
Thank you for the favor of your reply: It is my understanding that foreign nationals are the responsibility of their respective governments.
They can use our public schools, but are supposed to billed for the cost of educating their citizens, which should be no burden as they would bear that cost had their citizens remained in their own country.
The same is true with medical care.
The trick is we have to identify these people. Foreign natiionals coming here need to bring a passport, and if they don't, we need to take that issue up with their respective government.
Our State Dept. is supposed to be representing us, aren't they?
Kindest Regards,
John Lepant Brighton CO
I think you meant to write, "Then why are conservatives so opposed to the raise in taxes on the wealthy if "Progressives/Democrats" are in fact a "large majority of the wealthy?"
Even though you couldn't get your own question right I will answer it for you.
Because Conservatives are against raising taxes on ANY wealthy person no matter their politics. Why? Because you have never seen nor will you see a poor person create a job. What I find funny is the fact that you asked why Conservatives wouldn't want to raise taxes if Dems are also wealthy, but yet you have no problem with the fact that these wealthy Dems are also using the tax loopholes and cheating on their taxes to keep more of their money just like those they are admonishing and screaming about needing to be more regulated. Typical blindness.
[...] » The U.S. Economy Needs Fewer Public School Jobs, Not More – Big … [...]
Thanks….and back atchya!
The Jews are in the news here lately and if you will do the research, you will find that they hold their teachers in very high esteem. If we were to do the same and rid our public schools of unions, problem solved.
[...] » The U.S. Economy Needs Fewer Public School Jobs, Not More – Big … [...]
[...] » The U.S. Economy Needs Fewer Public School Jobs, Not More – Big … [...]
[...] » The U.S. Economy Needs Fewer Public School Jobs, Not More – Big … [...]
Let's fix this, first abolish the Department of Education it does nothing but cost us money and interfere with educating children. Second, cut administrative personnel by 50%, they add nothing to the education of children. Then we could put the teacher back in charge of the classroom, if a student is disruptive they need to be removed so the other kids can learn. If a student is violent or threatens another student or teacher they need to be expelled, no excuses! Next, put cops on every floor of the school so the students can feel safe and the 'rotten apples' will think twice before showing up. Maybe then when the students respect the teacher and everyone feels safe they can start learning.
DM, August 6th is Hiroshima Day. The lefties here out west always jump on the 'America is evil' bandwagon on the anniversary of the atomic bombing of Japan. We're 'racist' and all that jazz. I wrote a college term paper about how many lives, both Japanese and American were saved by the bombing and fortunately the teach was somewhat conservative, and told me afterward that he agreed with my thesis. Most libs just don't get how fanatical the Japanese were.
And tell me , please, what do you think is the BEST submarine movie ever ?
I tried to talk to my kid's teacher.I did not raise my voice, but only said I was offended by the question in the take-home packet asking by 7yo what she would do if her parents would pay to have the way she looked changed. The conversation didn't resolve anything, she went on to point out my kid's every fault (in her mind) and proceeded to make my child stay in from recess for the rest of the week following that conversation. My friends told me not to bring it up with her; they said she will take it out on the kid.
That was when I decided to homeschool. I have loved every minute of it and plugging into the greater home school subculture. I realize that other parents don't have this opportunity. In my district, you are not allowed to request a particular teacher, this is written policy. You can request not to have your child in a teacher's class, but you can only put down one, not anymore. I wish we had vouchers, because the system treats you as if you don't have any options. And they are right, most of us can't afford private school.
You rock sir.
GO HAWKS!!!!
Got it. When I lived out west I seem to have missed those protests…
Your paper was correct. My best buddy was a SGT in the 33rd infantry. He was slated for first wave of the beach landing on Japan and he is convinced he is only alive because of the Nukes dropped to force surrender. They were so prepared, it would have made Normandy look like a stroll in the park (His words, not mine).
Be well sir!
"Over the past forty years, public school employment has risen 10 times faster than enrollment…"
A statistic which becomes more extreme when you factor in the high dropout rate. Also, don't forget that besides taking care of the teachers unions, this huge spending for public "education" also perpetuates progressive dogma and the rewriting of history. Something designed to keep them in control for a long, long time.
[...] » The U.S. Economy Needs Fewer Public School Jobs, Not More – Big … [...]
Ditto that! Let's see, my district gets $8,000 per enrolled student so that's $24,000 I should get for my three kids.
[...] the topic of a commentary I just wrote at BigGovernment.com, tied to recent efforts to prop up public school employment with another $23 billion bailout. I [...]
[...] the topic of a commentary I just wrote at BigGovernment.com, tied to recent efforts to prop up public school employment with another $23 billion bailout. I [...]
My mother and sister are both teachers, and the county they work in hasn't raised their pay in over three years. They don't like it, but they agree with why it had to be done. I know I'm personally biased, but I believe it's teachers who acknowledge and accept that along with doing their best to get kids to learn the material that should stick around. Quite frankly, a good chunk of high school education could probably be removed. My mom teaches first grade, and she already has to teach her kids basic algebra on top of the basics!
The others should be out the door like that one teacher who'd been whining at the New Jersey governor about not getting a raise for one year and having to buy into her pension a little. $86,000 salary? Tragedy! I'm a programmer and make a little more than half that much. I'm constantly having to learn new technology lest I become obsolete, but you don't see me having whining about the unfairness of it.
[...] » The U.S. Economy Needs Fewer Public School Jobs, Not More – Big Government [...]
Chris Christie is teh awesome!!
Teachers Union: "Don't confuse us with facts, our minds are made up!"
Gee all that ad hominem and invective was really convincing!
LOL!!
FC,
I'd be happy just to get the Tax dollars I contribute back… I won't need anywhere near that much.
But the admin deleted me???? Wow that does not make sense… What did I say that was that bad?
I went back an read my original I do not think it should have been deleted by the admins.
But cest' la vie…
I edited it and re-replied just for principle.
WRONG AGAIN!
Read the study smarty pants.
Colleges are RECRUITING homeschooled kids because they KNOW how to THINK and not just regurgitate liberal claptrap.
EDITED – - – - – - –
Maybe your kids will be smart enough to mow my kids lawn and trim the hedges, that is if they can find a work ethic after public school drubs it out of them.
- – - – - – - – - End of EDIT
You are in ignorant TOOL!
Swear some more it is REALLY the way to show your low IQ…
"17 administrative employees for each student"
Are you sure you have that right? Remember – 5 out of 2 people don't understand ratios….
[...] See the original post: The U.S. Economy Needs Fewer Public School Jobs, Not More [...]
[...] The U.S. Economy Needs Fewer Public School Jobs, Not More Teachers unions, the Obama administration, and most Democrats in Congress want to spend another $23 billion that we don2019t have to shore up public school employment. If we don2019t go along, they tell us, it2019ll be a 201ccatastrophe201d for American education. With fewer teachers our kids will supposedly learn less… Read ahead [...]
You actually proved my point about over bloated administrative costs. I agree that school problems are not totally and wholly the fault of one particular group, nor did I ever imply that. I was merely pointedly directing towards the monetary problems. More money is going to administrative costs, then the teachers react to less pay via their unions. However, only public employees get the ridiculous benefits, including teachers, that no one else gets. They don't get it for a reason, that reason being is that it is not sustainable. Teachers are supposed to be intelligent so why is it they cannot plan for their own retirement and negotiate their own benefits? Or do the math that they are bankrupting the country?
As to your classroom size, sorry but I have no sympathy. Colleges have huge classrooms. Schools of old had even larger classrooms housed in one room. I was in classes much larger than now and had no problems, and that was from grammar school on up. I graduated top in my class, received a secondary education as well as post grad degree. I also have no sympathy for lack of time to teach material. Some things in life have to be self motivated, so that means homework. If parents do not motivate their children in the pursuit of knowledge, then they and their kids lose. Simple as that. It seems this country could use a massive public education campaign in regards to parents motivating their children to learn.
Realize this, most of the problems you cite are due to revisionist history and lawyers. Schools/ teachers screwed up years ago, and society tends to punish the collective instead of the individual. The hands of teachers are tied due to the screw ups of a few. The end result, good people don't teach, and the children lose, then society at large loses as well. Only two things will fix this mess. Have the money follow the children, or get government out of education completely and privatize the whole mess.
Regardless of the reasons teachers post of the failures of the education system, it has been about the last three decades that education is blatantly failing, and yet we had centuries of good education prior to that with less than ideal circumstances. The moment sex and politics entered into the education system, along with political correctness, is when they began to fail. Money problems are merely a distraction from the real problems.
Problem is the bar is now set really low in the colleges across America. Teaching credentials are the easiest to obtain and maintain. Take an up close look at what it takes to become a teacher. You will find the answer is not much.
I could give you a very long list to that end!!!!
[...] Read the original post: The U.S. Economy Needs Fewer Public School Jobs, Not More [...]
I realize everything you've said. I refer you to my last paragraph (hell, my entire post hints at it).
Also, RE class size. I was referring to the physical size of the rooms ( see:"….rooms designed for…."). When you're already at maximum capacity for the room without putting desks blocking doors, it's kinda hard to cram 10 more kids in. This starts violating fire codes and other laws. It also becomes a problem when the kids are not trained to respect others or their space (earlier and contemporary school, and community at large issue).
The class sizes in the past varied greatly in different places based on vastly different community needs, not exclusively in the class sizes you talk about being in. My mom graduated in a class of 15. All elementary grades were combined into one classroom, with a total of about 20-25 kids. You'd never hear of that now outside of the most remote areas of Appalachia. Conversely, my dad's typical classroom size was 50 or so people, more in line with what you experienced. Either way is fine by me, so long as there's appropriate facilities and an appropriate socialization (aka basic manners, respect) of the students before and during their time in those rooms. That's not there anymore.
The same goes for the class time limitations, for the most part. I'm fine with assigning homework, but when they're not disciplined enough and not even intellectually capable (because of the whole skipping every grade they failed), its kinda hard to get through everything you need to.
And as for your all the good people left because of all those factors thing…not all left. A lot did, admittedly, but some are still there and are just as demonized as the bad ones. And some of us are trying to get in. It just doesn't help get those people in, when their fellow political travelers paint them in a broad brush along with the actual problems. I'm actually all for getting rid of most, if not all, of the union clout, the administrative overhead, and putting in some better mechanism for gauging teacher effectiveness. It just gets tiring being called a libtard, idiot, and such when I point out that those reforms won't do jack squat until you reform (or at least account for) a vast array of other problems, many of which extend beyond school and into society at large, as well. You didn't do this explicitly, but it started to creep into your tone (talking down to me with things like the "realize this" and "I have no sympathy [for something you weren't even arguing to begin with]").
And my overall point wasn't that it was education failing or that it was society failing. I intended it as IT WAS BOTH FAILING AND FEEDING OFF EACH OTHER*, and a lot of it started in the 60's and 70's (coinciding with your 30 or so year time frame…and coinciding with people trying to do anything at college so that they could have the education credit to get out of going to Vietnam…). I just didn't feel like also going into the unions and teachers side of it because THAT'S NEARLY ALL I EVER HEAR ABOUT in conservative circles, so I figured it was already well enough covered.
*I should learn to state that explicitly by now; but even at that it usually doesn't matter if I do.
Forgot to mention – you would also have to build more classrooms and hire more support staff to accommodate more teachers and buildings…
How is it I got a thumbs down for just pointing out the facts and flaws of this article… and lets be clear – I voted against the class size amendment…
[...] about roll back public school employment to match enrollment? Over the past forty years, public school employment has risen 10 times faster than enrollment (see [...]
The root of the problems is still the unions, but I do agree that putting schools past capacity is a problem. It effects everything, including safety. I had that argument years ago when my daughter was in grammar school to no avail. I even took the issue up with the state! Ironically any business that did that would be shut down. Good teachers are not the only ones being lumped with the bad. See police and politicians. Society at large does that with every aspect, including Obama with his demonization of doctors.
Thank you for clarifying your post because it makes much more sense now.
Yep. One of my friends follows this kind of thing as a hobby. I tried to find th newspaper article because it was in the local paper, but I couldn't find it. I'm going to ask her about it, because I think she keeps archives of the info. She's pretty impressive with her knowledge of the subject.
That can't be right. I could see one Administrative employee for every 17 students, but not the other way around.
Think about it. If conservatively, there are 25 students per class, for a ratio of 25 students per teacher., you are saying that there are 25 x 17 = 425 adminstrators PER TEACHER.
Maybe your friend should take up another hobby….
[...] look at government school costs I generally don’t reprint or quote entire pieces but this one is short and too important not to do so. This is from Andrew J Coulson of the CATO Institute (via [...]
You have a very interesting view-point, in truth. Oddly, you choose to troll about it on this site–where you know people you dislike will be. How strange. Do you just hate them so much you don't just "tolerate" then–like your Liberal buddies tolerate gays, blacks, Mexicans who think Mexican is a race, etc.? I mean, I do the same and I don't go around bashing people for their view points, but I would like to mention a few facts to you:
According to the FACTS a large number of teachers don't matter, since the students aren't progressing any–hence, you should probably think about cutting back and improving the curriculum for "your children".
Also, I've been home-schooled my whole life and I'm quite literate as well as not having a mental disorder, thank you very much. I rescue animals and like to camp, I'm also pro-gay and Nondenominational. So….you're stereotyping me. I don't like that very much, since that is vaguely hypocritical since you liberals seem to enjoy the term "tolerance" so much. Do I not deserve the same treatment somehow?
Oh, and just o prove I'm rather intelligent–in seventh grade I got post-high-school results on my SATS, which home-schoolers do take. I know that if you put enough Sodium Hydroxide in water the water catches fire, James Madison was known as "the Father of the Constitution", Woodrow Wilson signed the Sedition Act, and in Jamestown Smith said more or less "you don't work, you don't eat". So, I'm sorry if I still seem like a stupid person who should be kicked out of your perfect world. Sadly, I thought liberals were supposed to be nice.
Still trying to find that article. I'll post a link if I can find it.
[...] Nails (SCO v. 3) By Rusty Can we say, “home school”? Student achievement, in grades K-12, has been flat since 1970, yet inflation-adjusted spending per student has doubled, [...]
[...] The teachers union’s destruction of capital…and education Here’s the chart from Big Government: [...]
[...] the sour, rotten fruits of Progressivism, unionization, and Big Government generally, is contained right here in this shocking-and-yet-not graph: I do not have a single thing to add to that; it speaks for [...]
[...] school spending vs. kids’ test scores. Very simple, very damning. I’d be surprised if Chris Christie [...]
[...] on Andrew Breitbart’s Big Government Web site, Andrew Coulson has an excellent post with some extremely depressing statistics about our public education system. Here’s a [...]
[...] details at Big Government. Read it and weep. Related Posts:How can states and the feds cut back?Putting information in [...]
[...] is not a site that actually advocates for big government), Andrew Coulson of the Cato Institute lays it all out, including a big graph (re-posted below) that helps to tell the story: Over the past forty years, [...]
[...] graph from the Cato Institute is making a pretty big splash over at Big Government, among other places, and rightfully [...]
[...] June 23, 2010 Posted by tantamergo in General Catholic, Society, foolishness. trackback Some starting statistics were released today. From the libertarian Cato Institute and Center for Educational Freedom, Andrew J. Coulson has [...]
This is just terrible!
1.It's for the children. If you are against spending on education, you are against children. How'd you like that spread around.
2.I'm sure the increase in cost went to more teachers, therefore smaller class sizes, which is good, because … well, everybody knows that!
3.They adjust for cost inflation but not grade inflation. What's up with that?
Andrew J Coulson, you are obviously a mean person.
[...] An argument that reducing teaching jobs is a good thing. (Big Government) [...]
[...] An argument that reducing teaching jobs is a good thing. (Big Government) [...]
[...] [...]
This is an interesting argument, but I like my kids' schools and teachers. Let's try the budget cuts out on your kids first to see if there's any negative impact on their education. Then we'll talk.
[...] US needs fewer education jobs. h/t Doug [...]
[...] another chart worth checking out. It shows that the cost of educating a child in the public school system has increased fourfold [...]
[...] 24, 2010 · Leave a Comment The surprising part of these graphs is that test scores remain constant. Were the tests adjusted for grade [...]
[...] The U.S. Economy Needs Fewer Public School Jobs, Not More [...]
I'd stop looking….it doesn't exist. I'd bet the house on there being no article to back-up "The district where I live has 11 schools in it. That same district has 9 superintendents, and 9 assistant superintendents.", either. Pretty confident that post-grad work wasn't in mathematics. If you're going to make stuff up at least try to keep it semi-believable.
Oh, btw, simply let us know the school districts you're referencing and we can look it up ourselves. I'm sure all 9 superintendents will be listed on the district website along with the 28,106.1 administrative employees (11 schools * 150.3 students (average school size in US) * 17 admin employees per student). Yeah, those teachers are the "truly dumb" ones.
[...] BigGovernment.com spells out the details: Student achievement at the end of high school has been flat for as long as we’ve been keeping track—all the way back to 1970. But we did get something in return for all that hiring: a great, big, fat, BILL. [...]
[...] We don’t need more public school teachers, writes Cato’s Andrew Coulson on Big Government. Over the past 40 years, enrollment rose by 9 percent while the number of public school employees nearly doubled. To prove that rolling back this relentless hiring spree by a few years would hurt student achievement, you’d have to show that all those new employees raised achievement in the first place. That would be hard to do… because it never happened. [...]
[...] Andew Coulson, Director of the Center for Educational Freedom at the Cato Institute, says we need fewer teachers, not more. He makes his case by pointing out that since 1970, public school enrollment has increased 10%, but [...]
[...] of a public schooling system that employs over 6 million people. Moreover, we’ve had huge increases in spending and staffing over the last several decades but no real improvements in academic outcomes. If anything, then, we [...]
[...] American Thinker – Original article from Big Government. [...]
[...] Thinker – Original article from Big Government. Share and [...]
[...] » The U.S. Economy Needs Fewer Public School Jobs, Not More – Big … [...]
[...] are only 9 percent more students today, but nearly twice as many public school employees. To … Read More RECOMMENDED BOOKS REVIEWS AND OPINIONS Had Enough Indy ?: Don Stinson New [...]
[...] [...]
[...] The problem is that one of their chief goals, shared by many of their billionaire peers, is to improve American education — an institution whose ultimate outcomes have not improved in four decades despite the infusion of trillions of additional dollars. [...]
[...] The problem is that one of their chief goals, shared by many of their billionaire peers, is to improve American education — an institution whose ultimate outcomes have not improved in four decades despite the infusion of trillions of additional dollars. [...]
[...] The problem is that one of their chief goals, shared by many of their billionaire peers, is to improve American education — an institution whose ultimate outcomes have not improved in four decades despite the infusion of trillions of additional dollars. [...]
[...] [...]
[...] Now, certainly many teachers want nothing more than to teach and do a good job. Some might even do it as much “for the kids” as their own personal satisfaction. But teachers, at least as represented by the NEA and the American Federation of Teachers, sure as heck are a special interest. Indeed, they might be called a super-special interest, with unparalled sway over Democrats especially, and an incredible ability to get money out of taxpayers. [...]
[...] Now, certainly many teachers want nothing more than to teach and do a good job. Some might even do it as much “for the kids” as their own personal satisfaction. But teachers, at least as represented by the NEA and the American Federation of Teachers, sure as heck are a special interest. Indeed, they might be called a super-special interest, with unparalled sway over Democrats especially, and an incredible ability to get money out of taxpayers. [...]
[...] Now, certainly many teachers want nothing more than to teach and do a good job. Some might even do it as much “for the kids” as their own personal satisfaction. But teachers, at least as represented by the NEA and the American Federation of Teachers, sure as heck are a special interest. Indeed, they might be called a super-special interest, with unparalled sway over Democrats especially, and an incredible ability to get money out of taxpayers. [...]
[...] the Obama administration, and the congressional majority just threw at the public school monopoly did not serve children or the U.S. economy. They must dearly be hoping that the American public never hears the real [...]
[...] the Obama administration, and the congressional majority just threw at the public school monopoly did not serve children or the U.S. economy. They must dearly be hoping that the American public never hears the real [...]
[...] June 5, Andrew Coulson posted a disturbing graph at Big [...]
[...] Coulson at the Cato Institute reviewed the 2009 version of the Digest of Education Statistics (PDF, 7 MB or Web version), with a [...]
[...] Ewing posted the video below on Big Government, but before you watch it check out Andrew Coulson’s graphs showing why the U.S. economy need fewer public school jobs, not [...]
[...] June 5, Andrew Coulson posted a disturbing graph at Big [...]
[...] the Obama administration, and the congressional majority just threw at the public school monopoly did not serve children or the U.S. economy. They must dearly be hoping that the American public never hears the real [...]
[...] For a great article about how student performance hasn’t increased with more education spending, check this out. [...]
» The U.S. Economy Needs Fewer Public School Jobs, Not More – Big ……
I found your entry interesting do I’ve added a Trackback to it on my weblog
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